Recommend an integrated amp/receiver/etc.

[Wuchak]

Check out the Music Hall A25.2. This was a Stereophile recommended component. It had an MSRP around $1000 and street price of $699. It has been replaced in their line with the A50.2 and Music Direct is selling their remaining stock of A25.2's at $350 which is a steal for this amp. http://www.musicdirect.com/product/88057

I was using one to drive my Chorus I's. It sounds better than my Anthem Integrated 1 tube amp with stock tubes. The MH is 50 watts vs. 25 watts in the Anthem. That extra power helps bring out the bass. With NOS tubes ($350) the Anthem edges it out in the mids and highs but the Music Hall has much better bass. For about $100 and 10 minutes work (just unplug the old and plug in the new, like swapping tubes) you can swap the opamps in the Music Hall to BurrBrown OPA-627s. With this mod I suspect the Music Hall will equal the NOS tubes. With the stock opamps the Music Hall was a little harsh in the high end at first. After about 50 hours it smoothed out and it was continueing to sound better and sweeter until I replaced it with an Aragon 4004 (huge tight bass with the Aragon, those 15" 4 ohm drivers in the Chorus need power to really come to life no matter what the Chorus sensitivity ratings suggest).

Underwood Hi Fi offers a couple of serious upgrade packages for the Music Hall each with a different opamp. When I emailed them and asked about which to use Chris Johnson (founder and former President of Sonic Frontiers) said to go with the OPA-627. I suspect that you get 80% of the total benefit of the upgrade package just by swapping the opamps. http://www.underwoodhifi.com/mod_musichall.html

Also check out the Music Hall trio. It gives you their CD player, amp, and tuner in one slick box. New they are about $800 which gives you a lot for the money but they can be found used in your price range. You can do the opamp swap in these too.

[crd97086]

Now, the above post is so spot on and well presented. Music Hall is a wonderful product with a ton of value for the buck. Also, go on Ebay and check out all the Bryston 3b and 4b. They are pheomenally cheap and they have that 20 year warranty that always transfers when sold.

[Hifi jim]

I don't want to hijack wuzzzer's thread here, but I do have a question.

What difference do those features make, real world?

Well, twin power supplies in a dual mono design offers many of the benefits of monoblocks in a more compact stereo design. A cleaner, clearer soundstage has been my experience when comparing monoblocks to stereo, or in this case, dual mono design compared to an ordinary single power supply. I think we all know the benefits of a really clean preamp, and the A6s power amp is a Class A/AB design which means the first few watts will be Class A which also offers a cleaner and more detailed sound.

To be fair, the Pioneer is very affordable, but the HK isn't exactly considerably more expensive either. Seems to me that they could affix the Mark Levinson name to the thing, sell it for ten times the cost, and some of its "audiophile" naysayers would claim it to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I agree, to some extent. Mark Levinson gear is very hi end gear designed with a no compromise approach compared to something like the Pioneer. Levinson uses their best design coupled with the best parts and American build quality. The Pioneer is a whole other animal by comparison. To be fair, the Pioneer (in my opinion) could compare to some $1,500 audiophile integrated amps. I say this based on the Pioneers build quality, which is far better than pictures lead you to believe. I also base this on the A6s performance, which I feel is very comparable to anything I've heard under $1,500. A large company with the resources that Pioneer has, is able to design and build this product for substantially less than a company like NAD, Creek, etc. As good as those companies are at building their products, they are without the resources to build anything like the A6 for anywhere near the price that Pioneer is asking. That is NOT to say, that amplifiers from those companies cannot compete sonically with the Pioneer, or that someone may even prefer those (whose names I simply mention because I have some experience with their product), the final decision is something personal that we choose for different reasons. For me and my purposes, the Pioneer A6 fits like a glove.

[crd97086]

Also, if you keep buying receivers you will just keep getting receivers. As always you are buying tradeoffs. If you love music, then step into the audiophile world and buy less compromise.

[StephenM]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response!

I guess my question is more a matter of how much improvement is possible before its more academic than audible. I point to the HK because it has been bench tested by a seemingly competent engineer at Audioholics, but the same could more than likely apply to your Pioneer. They might not measure as quiet as a Bryston or Levinson or McIntosh at many times the cost, but within their envelope of performance, how likely are you to hear a difference? Can you hear an SNR of 100dB vs 80dB (Gene at Audioholics mentions 60dB as being acceptable, whereas the HK measured at 80dB)? How about a crosstalk of 105dB vs 90dB(greater than 60dB being noted as inaudible by human ears)? Will my bass really tighten up and go deeper if I ditch my cheapo receiver and step into a Bryston? Ultimately I'd like to get more time listening to "better" products (which is its own challenge anymore), but I don't hold much hope that they will rock my world any better than my current HK receiver. Color me a skeptic I guess.

[Hifi jim]

I guess my question is more a matter of how much improvement is possible before its more academic than audible.

Stephen, that's what is known as "diminishing returns". The more you pay, the less you get in return. It's an unfortunate phenomenon in this hobby and most any other. But yes, in my opinion, there is an audible difference between a $1k amplifier and $5k amplifier (all things being relatively equal; amplifier topology, output, etc.) I don't get caught up in specs all that much because I have little interest in it, and it can only tell me so much about an amplifier, least of all: how it sounds. In this case, making an on paper comparison between the HK (which I'm sure is a fine amp) and the Pioneer, what is of interest to me is this: the HK includes an on board DAC, video switching and DSP. While these may be viable features for some, from my point of view these are unnecessary and complex circuits which are better left out in exchange for a lower price, and/or better performance. These are the very same features which AVRs have, and I've never heard an AVR that I could live with for 2 channel... too many compromises in one box. I believe Pioneer made the right choices for someone like me. A simple, easy to use receiver with only what you need, and nothing you don't. More important than anything I've written here, the A6 brings a smile to face when I listen. Color me impressed.

[StephenM]

I guess you could say I get caught up in the technical details a bit. In any case, I'll actually admit to being intrigued by the A6: the price is right and it would at least appear to be something worth giving a listen. Unfortunately, Pioneer doesn't seem interested in selling it in my area...

[Hifi jim]

I guess you could say I get caught up in the technical details a bit.

That's fine and a very interesting aspect of this hobby in its own right, and there are lots of technically minded folks like yourself on this forum.

Unfortunately, Pioneer doesn't seem interested in selling it in my area...

You've summed up the biggest problem with the A6, awful marketing on Pioneers part. They have no real information on their website (I had no idea about the twin power supplies until after I purchased it, I thought only the larger A9 model had those according to my research), there are almost no reviews of the receiver online, and nobody seems too interested in selling them (online dealers, or brick and mortar). It was designed as an integrated amp for the European market, and it seems Pioneer put a tuner in it and threw it on their website to fill a gap in their US lineup. If it wasn't for the review on WhatHiFi.com, I never would have bought it... and it seems nobody else is either. They are very rare, new or used and I was lucky to find mine for about a 1/3 of the MSRP, NIB on eBay. It's really a shame since I think this the best receiver or integrated to hit the market in a long time, and I much prefer it to the new two channel gear from Onkyo and Yamaha which is getting lots of press.

[andyo5]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response!

I guess my question is more a matter of how much improvement is possible before its more academic than audible.

That's why I stopped at the Bryston level of expense whey I bought my BP25 preamp and B3ST amp twelve years ago.

I figured that that was the price point at which I had maximized the price/cost factor.

I have not had any reason to change my mind since then.