JLOUNDER Posted March 5, 2001 Share Posted March 5, 2001 Al K I currently own a pair of Heresey's(1978)with type E network. I read sometime last year a few posts explaining how to install a P Trap, which I would like to try. Unfortunately those posts are no longer available and I didn't print them out. If you would, please explain this procedure one more time so I can copy the information down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted March 6, 2001 Share Posted March 6, 2001 Not trying to step in on Al's territory but I as a tweaker (and builder) have just bought the latest Loudspeaker Cookbook (6th edition). It a lot of info. that can be applied to tweaking speakers along with building speakers. It also shows the math for many of the ways that frequency response can be taylored. Peter Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOUNDER Posted March 6, 2001 Author Share Posted March 6, 2001 No problem stepping in. I'll have to check into this Loudspeaker Cookbook and do some reading. Thank God for this BB, and all of the people who post on it. Only for the love of Klipsch Speakers could this be possible. Tweaking is what makes this BB so enjoyable. Al is most likely still in nirvana from his visit to Hope and meeting PWK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenB Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 JLOUNDER, I think the P-trap config. you saw was a 0.25mH inductor (after the stepdown trans) in series with the squawker + with a 4 uF cap in parallel to the common. "Sorry I could not draw circuit out sucessfully using the BB post system". Al K. or somebody, let me know if this is wrong. Obviously there are other P-trap designs. Though this is the one Al tested out I believe. Cheers / Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 I would suggest trying what PWK says makes the K55V mate better with the K77, 230µH + 4µF. http://www.delphion.com/cgi-bin/viewpat.cmd/US04237340__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 djk, I tried a p trap on my khorns, but as I remember it I used 3uf and 300Mh values. This did nothing to the spike I had present from 5500 to 6500 Hz., so I took it out. Perhaps these lower values would move the filter effect further down in frequency? I heard somewhere that the values I used worked around 9K, not 6K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkeller Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 I installed the P-Trap on my 1978 Heresy's and the results were huge. The vintage of the Atlas driver in your speakers has a lot to do with the effectiveness of the P-Trap mod. Klipsch just let the driver roll off at 6500hz with no electrical limit. Problem is, natural resonance of some drivers brought the output back up at 9000hz. This is the source of much of the "horn glare" many try to reduce with damping materials. I'm surprised you can't find the P-Trap mod in the archives. I'll look and post the site address in a following post if successfull. Otherwise I'll have to take the back off one of my Heresys and take a look. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkeller Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Here is the P-Trap info from an E-Mail I received some time back. "This crossover has no high cutoff for the mid. it depends on the acoustic response of the Atlas driver. It will die at 6k but most come back at 9k. This causes a harsh sound people think is caused by the horn. A simple trap will cure the problem . Parallel a .1 mh. coil and a 3mf. cap. connect this combination in series with the + terminal of the mid driver" I hope this helps (Use a Northcreek Zen or Crescendo cap) Paul Keller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenB Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 djk, Did I miss something? I saw the PWK patent: Figure #5 showed a 0.23mH in series with the squawker +, and the cap was a 4uF (not a 2uf) to the common. -Ken (gad these UBB codes are a pain) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkeller Posted March 7, 2001 Share Posted March 7, 2001 Since we are talking about 1978 vintage Heresy 1's, the "E" network is the crossover in question. It has a 2.5mh inductor, two 2.0uf caps, and a 2TA autoformer. I suspect your looking at a different version or network. The "P-Trap" is added to the + of the squaker and eventually connects to the - terminal of the speaker. It's easy. Disconnect the lead at the + terminal of your squawker. Take your p-trap cap and coil and twist the ends in parallel. Take one twisted cap/coil combo end and connect with the + terminal of the squaker. Connect the other twisted end to the wire you first removed from the squaker + terminal. Totaly reversible and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOUNDER Posted March 7, 2001 Author Share Posted March 7, 2001 Thanks for the info, I have yet to figure out how to access the archives on this BB so I had to ask for assistance on the p-trap. I guess I'll have to stumble around a little more to find the archives so I can research more cool tweaks. I love my heresey's and eventually will upgrade to a much better system, but for now I want to see what these are really capable of before I step up to the next level. I have friends that own K-horns, LaScalas, Cornwalls & Heresey's and all love them. I could live with any one of them. Again thanks for all your help and I'll post my findings after the mod and some serious listening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 quote: Originally posted by KenB: djk, Did I miss something? I saw the PWK patent: Figure #5 showed a 0.23mH in series with the squawker +, and the cap was a 4uF (not a 2uf) to the common. -Ken (gad these UBB codes are a pain) Ken,you didn't miss anything,I did.The cap to be added is 4µF not 2µF.I should also point out that PWK also changed The Q of the tweeter network too.For those of you that have a AA network the tweeter signal goes through a series 2µF, a 245µH to ground, and a second series 2µF to the tweeter.Change the second 2µF to 6µF and the choke is close enough(existing 245µH vs the specified new value of 236µH).This mod makes the response in the 4~7Khz region smoother.Also note the addition of the 128µF cap in parallel with the woofer.On the K/B/LS this fills in a dip in the 250~400hz region.This is only for type AA networks.Type AK/AB/AL already have this part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 8, 2001 Share Posted March 8, 2001 I am going to make some comments about type B and type E networks in this space tomorrow.No time now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOUNDER Posted March 12, 2001 Author Share Posted March 12, 2001 PKELLER What brand & type of coil & cap did you use for the trap and where did you get them? Something I don't think has been discussed on this BB is good sources for parts for redoing the crossovers. Any help would be greatly appreciated by myself and other members. Have you built and installed your new/stock crossover yet? Just curious as to how much it has improved the sound of the Heresey's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 13, 2001 Share Posted March 13, 2001 Madisound is the best place to buy nework parts.They have the best choice of inductors period.Air core(three different wire gauges available), powdered iron, steel, laminated steel, Litz, copper foil.About the only thing they don't have is paper in oil caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkeller Posted March 13, 2001 Share Posted March 13, 2001 I used solen heptalitz inductors .1mh and Northcreek Zen caps 3uf in my "P traps". They changed the Heresy's into much better speakers. I cannot recommend Northcreek Zen and Crescendo speaker caps highly enough. They increased the transparency a great deal in my Shamrock Audio speakers over more standard Solen metalized film caps. No I have not installed the new crossovers in my Heresy's yet. They have been completed for months but my time has been streched so thin, it has not been a priority. Mabee I should make the time and post the results. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOUNDER Posted March 13, 2001 Author Share Posted March 13, 2001 pkeller & djk, Thanks for the info, I'm electronically challenged when it comes to selecting the correct component. There's just too many to choose from. I'll get the parts ordered and install them and then post my results. pkeller, Post your results when you do finally get the new networks installed. I'll be interested to hear what your opinion is. Thanks again for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Harris Posted March 13, 2001 Share Posted March 13, 2001 Does anyone know whether the P-Trap will work in the E-2 crossover used in the mid-80s Heresys? I've already upgraded all the caps in the current crossover. Thanks, J! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted March 14, 2001 Share Posted March 14, 2001 The parallel trap is only for K55V mids.E2 and B2 networks were used with the Hepner(later made by Klipsch) mid(K52,53,57,etc)and do not need the trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkeller Posted March 15, 2001 Share Posted March 15, 2001 OK, I finally got around to swapping the stock heresy type "E" crossovers with the new ones mentioned a couple posts above. My Heresy's are 1978 (alnico) vintage and have had the "P trap" installed for the past several months. I have been changing other things in my audio system recently (amplifier mods), so I had to get familliar with the sound before I could make any meaningfull comparisson of the two crossovers. Now the results: First impression (installed 5 minutes ago) is that the tweeter has more detail and delecacy. There is a bit more transparency and detail across the entire audio range. Bass is more controlled and a tad stronger. Imaging and dynamics are enhanced. Now the down side. The midrange, while cleaner, is slightly too strong. Remember that this system does include the P-trap. This may be corrected by a simple relocation of the squawker "-" wire to the #1 tap on the autoformer, rather than the stock #2 location. This would lower the mid horn -3db and probably be about right. To be fair, these new caps have not had a chance to settle in and the excess mid might take care of itself in time. It's not too far off as it is, but could be better. Over all, the new crossover has much more potential than the stock unit. The much larger inductor and Zen polypropylene film caps are clearly superior to the 23 year old components they replace. As for the UTC autoformer, It's about the same size as the stock unit. Al Klappenberger made some measurments in it a while back and found it better, so I used it. I have a photo of the new crossovers, but I'm having trouble attaching it to this board. Can anyone tell me how? As I type this, the sound comming from the Heresy's seems to be getting better. Even more detail. Either the mids are settling down a bit or the highs are getting stronger and more in balance with the mids and lows. Just for refrence, Im using modified Heathkit EA-2(12 watt 6BQ5/EL-84) amplifiers. Efficiency is about the same as before. I won't be changing back to the old networks. I have about an hour of listening time now (I type slowly) and the mids are getting to be about right. Detail and transparency is increasing as time passes. I'm Jazzed. Hope all this helps. Paul Keller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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