dudedah Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Still trying to understand you wall problem. Directly behind your TV is drywall then what? I am puzzled with the 1.5" of 2X4 comment. If the brick wall is an exterior wall at a minimum you would have, starting at the outside,brick wall, 2X4 studs, vapor barrier and insulation...no? Were the 2X4 cut down? Were they turned sideways with the 2" (1.5) thickness mounted directly to the brick and no top/sill? Does it not look like this behind the drywall? There is brickwall, 2x4's laid flat (which,as you mentioned is REALLY only 1.5"), then drywall. No vapor barrier or insulation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch_Geek Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 The 2x4"s being laid flat is the problem then. If the wall had been built correctly, and maybe it is correct for what you wanted the look to be, but not from a standard framing perspective, you would have been able to install In-Wall speakers that at least got rid of the cardinal sin of using In-Ceilings for your front 3. I install In-Wall and In-Ceiling speakers for customers all the time, it is a necessary evil in the biz, but I always hate to see In-Ceilings as the front 3, especially with all those hard surfaces and that hard floor. Kiss directionality and depth of sound goodbye. Now, on to the solution for what you have, I would spread the Front L/R and Rear L/R out as far as you can within the dimensions of the room. Try to keep them at least 18" from any side boundary, but more like 24" if you can (it will just depend on how the ceiling joists run. Then put the center over the TV, again 18-24" away from the front wall if you can. More likely you can get it 1+ joist space out. These are not exact measurements, as I would have to spend some time on the room to figure out optimal placement, but they are good guidelines. Ultimately you can only do what you can do, and we can't all be lucky enough to have trained our wives early that speakers can be nice furniture that does something other than hold crap As far as speaker choices go, the only thing you could have done different was to get the 7502's for the rear instead to have a wider spread rear sound field, but with as "live" as that room looks, that may have been overkill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedah Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Klipsch_Geek I really appreciate your time in responding to this thread with some specifics about my setup. I originally looked at 5800 W's but my mounting depth problem quickly ruled those out. The house was built in '57 and I'm not sure what their reasoning was build the wall the way they did. As I think about it, it woulndn't be INSANE to rip the wall down and redo it, installing the 2x4's the correct way and adding insulation...but I think I'll go with what I've got for now and see how it turns out. THANKS AGAIN! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch_Geek Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 No problem. I understand the realities of both construction and WAF. If you have a HAA certified calibrator, or an Audio installer with modeling tools and an RTA local you could get them to come in and give you better recommendations for the room, but that might be more money than it is worth for those speakers and that configuration. I would typically charge $300 for a pre-visit with recommendations and then a post visit for tweaks and calibration, though there would be less placement to tweak with this install. The other problem for the room is going to be treatments. You are going to be pretty limited in that. If you can get the 5800-C's to not sound too bad, you can then start building an out-building to use as for listening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedah Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 And so you're recommending placing the rear surrounds as far apart as Front L/R...Interesting. I noticed the Dolby and THX setups showing them close together with even one of those two setups showing them literally side-by-side. I also saw where it looked like the "side" surrounds were outside of the Front L/R and Rear L/R. If you suggest running Front L/R and Rear L/R far apart, would it be ok if Front R, Surround R, and Rear Surround R were all on the same line running the length of the room and then ditto for the Left side? Does that make ANY sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch_Geek Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Your problem here is that these are not technically directional speakers, nor are they dipole or wide dispersion type surrounds. If you were dealing with 7502's for the surrounds, and 5800 In-Walls for the fronts and rear surrounds, you should absolutely look at standard or close to standard placement. But with In-Ceilings that are "direct" I would look to get as wide and defined a rear surround field as possible. You may lose some directionality but you would gain a much larger sounding back field. I would have the side 5800's parallel to your listening position, and then line up the fronts and rears with them. Ultimately this will also give you a nicer spread for 7 channel stereo music playback in the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedah Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 PERFECT! That is Exactly what I wanted to know. Now as far as spacing the rear surrounds from the "side" surrounds, should the distance between the rear surrounds and the side surrounds be equal or more than the distance between the Fronts and the sides? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipsch_Geek Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 The easy answer is, you should never be sitting in the dead centr of a rectangular room. As a good base measurement to go off of, you can sit 2/5 of the length back from the TV, or 3/5's of the length back. These aren't exact, but they get you away from the center collection of a lot of bad bass modes/nulls. In most cases I lean towards 3/5's of the length away from the TV, at that point the surrounds would be just the other side of center, with the fronts and rear surrounds being 18-24" from the front and back wall respectively. If your seating location is closer than half-way, I would go ahead and put the surrounds at the half-way point, with the fronts and rears the same as above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2011 I noticed the Dolby and THX setups showing them close together with even one of those two setups showing them literally side-by-side. That diagram used to confuse me too. If you look at this page on THX, the 7.1 diagram shows the back surrounds directly beside each other but if you scroll to near the bottom, it shows the back surrounds separated 60 degrees. If you do not have the capability of taking advantage of the HD Audio Codecs, THX recommends keeping your rear speakers side by side. If you have a Bluray player and a receiver that can either process Dolby TrueHD & DTS-Master as through bitstream or if you can let your Bluray decode it and send it to the receiver via PCM then you would place your back speakers apart from each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedah Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 Dang, I'm really glad you chimed in here Klipsch_Geek, this was exactly the type of info I was hoping for. On a side note, I was in your neck of the woods not TOO long ago. There is a Mies van der Rohe house in Overland Park and I had to go check it out. Youthman, thanks for clearing up that, it was a bit confusing. My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V1900 and my Blu-Ray player is a Yamaha BD-S667 so I should be good to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Youthman Posted March 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 22, 2011 My receiver is a Yamaha RX-V1900 and my Blu-Ray player is a Yamaha BD-S667 so I should be good to go. Yep, I would separate your back surrounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudedah Posted April 4, 2011 Author Share Posted April 4, 2011 ... I would spread the Front L/R and Rear L/R out as far as you can within the dimensions of the room. Try to keep them at least 18" from any side boundary, but more like 24" if you can (it will just depend on how the ceiling joists run. Then put the center over the TV, again 18-24" away from the front wall if you can. More likely you can get it 1+ joist space out. These are not exact measurements, as I would have to spend some time on the room to figure out optimal placement, but they are good guidelines. So, started the install over the weekend. Got the complicated task of crating a channel up the wall, through the attic and down behind the TV opened up and ran the HDMI cable and Subwoofer cable, oh and a couple CAT5 cables started. Some specifics on the room and seating position, the room is 32' deep and the seating position is ~12' back from the TV. Going to mount front three 24" from front wall. With those dimensions and seating position, would you still recommend surrounds at halfway point and rear surrounds at 24" from back wall? Thanks again for all your input/help with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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