Soundstage--Imaging Problem....Chorus ll's

[SWL]

Rudy makes some very good points. Ethan's lierature and videos were a big help in getting the basics down pat to make my room successful. I did however opt to go with GIK and ATS products since they were much more affordable.

[Rudy81]

Rudy makes some very good points. Ethan's lierature and videos were a big help in getting the basics down pat to make my room successful. I did however opt to go with GIK and ATS products since they were much more affordable.

I know all about affordability. All of my treatments are DIY as are more and more of my speakers, but for different reasons.

[SWL]

Well, tonight we treated the early and secondary reflection points including right behind the horns. While it brought clarity and smoothed out the bass that was somewhat boomy prior.....we gained nothing in imaging or soundstage. []

We also tried running the speakers from the Scott 299 alone (not bi-amped). Still no improvement in imaging. It was a sweet reminder of how well passive bi-amping works when you put tubes on the horns and a powerful ss amp on the woofers. Can you say headroom? []

Next, we're gonna bring the Chorus ll's over to my house and put them in place of my KLF-30's where the imaging and soundstaging is kicking some butt in a treated room.

[Rudy81]

I find it very odd that you are not getting even some basic imaging. I can only surmise something is wrong. I'm not saying you should have perfect imaging and soundstage, but the basic speaker should give you satisfactory, basic imaging.

Let us know how the move to another room worked. Based on what you have done so far, I won't be surprised if they still don't image well.

[SWL]

I find it very odd that you are not getting even some basic imaging.

Define basic.

I believe it is producing some basic imaging....and I mean basic. The imaging we're after is when the speakers disappear. We're hearing both speakers play with some minor cohesiveness in between.

[SWL]

I find it very odd that you are not getting even some basic imaging. I can only surmise something is wrong.

Agreed.

[Rudy81]

By basic, I mean that you should easily be able to hear a singer positioned dead center and have some idea that instruments are located in different parts of the soundstage.

Now, the kind of imgaing and soundstage where the speakers disapper, that's a whole other matter. I am not sure you are going to get that level of transparency and soundstage from those speakers, but I may be wrong. Heck, I pursue that all the time with my system and can achieve it with certain recordings. Of course, the recording plays a big part in that type of magic.

[SWL]

I pursue that all the time with my system and can achieve it with certain recordings. Of course, the recording plays a big part in that type of magic.

Yeah, my experience as well. Certain recordings are just magical. I am totally impressed with how these KLF-30's perform. Location and placement was key. Get past the "glue mishap" and they are an amazing speaker.

So let's hear it from the Chorus ll guys. How do your's image? How do they soundstage? I'm curious here because I almost went with the Chorus ll. I admire their sound but I haven't heard any magic from these babies yet. [:^)]

[SWL]

Brought the Chorus ll's over to my house this afternoon and played them in a heavily treated room and did a direct comparison with my KLF-30's. Here's what we discovered:

Imaging was somewhat improved but was not vivid. Didn't pass the test.

Bass was dramatically smoother in this room. No more boominess. Sounded good.

Soundstage effect was faint, lacking.

While the bass sounded much, much better in this room the mids-highs were a big disappointment in comparison.

Next, we will take my second pair of 30's over to Mike's house. Hopefully Southern will be able to bring his Fortes as well. In the meantime Mike is shopping for a pair of used KLF-30's. We're still not convinced that the Chorus ll's are performing up to their potential. They don't sound flawed or screwed up in any way.....I just expected more from them.

[Rudy81]

I still think something is wrong with the internal wiring of the speaker. From personal experience I know this can happen. My first pair of speakers was a brand new set of Belles. Over the years I noticed the imgaing was not quite precise enough, but lived with the problem. I eventually decided to mess around with the drivers and found that although the mid range driver was "correctly" wired according to wire color, if I reversed the polarity of just that driver, imaging was greatly improved and it sounded way better. The problem is that with just one driver out of phase, you get a semblance of imaging, but now what it should be for a quality speaker.

[SWL]

I still think something is wrong with the internal wiring of the speaker.

I agree. I can't see how they can sound that much worse than the 30's.

The problem is that with just one driver out of phase, you get a semblance of imaging, but now what it should be for a quality speaker.

That's what we're getting.

[Rudy81]

Just for grins I might try reversing the leads to the driver on the mid range and see if that helps. If not, then try the woofer and eventually the tweeter. That was how I found the problem with my Belles years ago.

[SWL]

We did this initially but we're gonna start all over again on Saturday. We'll try everything we can think of including any other suggestions thrown at us. Last time we reversed the leads with both speakers the same.....this time will change it up, whatever it takes. We'll also try a test tone disc to see what frequencies might seem out of whack.

Thanks for your suggestions Rudy.....we'll take all the help we can get.

[Chris A]

we'll take all the help we can get.

One technique suggested by Roy Delgado that worked well for me (when I decided to trust my ears) was to play mono-only, and listen for a single soundstage image. If there are any issues there, then you probably have either driver phasing issues or you have early reflection issues around the front of the room (including ceiling and floors).

When standing close to centerline, the sound image should be locked at center and you should hear neither "left speaker" nor "right speaker"--even high and low frequencies.

Chris

[Rudy81]

We did this initially but we're gonna start all over again on Saturday. We'll try everything we can think of including any other suggestions thrown at us. Last time we reversed the leads with both speakers the same.....this time will change it up, whatever it takes. We'll also try a test tone disc to see what frequencies might seem out of whack.

Thanks for your suggestions Rudy.....we'll take all the help we can get.

If one driver is out of phase, you will need to change only one set of driver leads at a time of course. Cask05s idea of using mono is excellent. In mono, you should get a perfect center image. Good luck.

[Rudy81]

I forgot to mention an even easier option if you have a tone generator like the one in REW (Room EQ Wizard). Set the system to mono so that both speakers play the same thing. Select a tone well outside the crossover overlap so that only one set of drivers is playing. You should get a good central image with each set of driver. If one set is reproducing properly, then you know where your problem is. This method should avoid the wire swapping issues.

[SWL]

Cask05s idea of using mono is excellent. In mono, you should get a perfect center image.

Now, when you guys say mono......are you implying to just hit the mono button on the preamp rather than stereo?

[Chris A]

Now, when you guys say mono......are you implying to just hit the mono button on the preamp rather than stereo?

That would do it - if you have a mono button...

Chris

[SWL]

I've got other preamps laying around with the mono option. We can swap them out just for this test.

[Rudy81]

Whatever it takes to get the same signal to both speakers. In my HT processor, you have to go into the menu and set the mono function to be sent to either the center or both mains.