Klipshorns in Home Theater

[shake777]

We will be finishing the basement before too long. Based on the profile and picture, would Khorns work well after rearranging the other towers? Since they are so efficient, I'm guessing they wouldn't need 200W and I could use some other configuration of Emotivas instead of another XPA-5. Thanks, Nic

[BluBitRates]

My advice is to go one way or the other. I think you would be more impressed with the k-horns but then i would suggest getting a new center and rethinking surrounds (go to a 5.1 or 7.1 setup). I think one issue is that you probably love the features and expansiveness of your receiver and would hate to simplify down to where you were not using some its its most renown features. You may also have to rethink your screen if you have to get a new center. Really a toss up but if you have a big room and perfect corners the khorn is supposed to be pretty incredible. Also i would definantly want to throw the most power i could into the k-horns, it would be before reference volumes that you would notice the improvement.

[psg]

I agree. Don't mix 'em. How wide is that front wall?How would it be sitting the front row at half that length from the front wall?

Anyway, I love mine !

[garyrc]

The Klipschorns would be fine for Blu-rays of movies transferred from magnetic soundtracks (most movies from 1953 to the digital age) or well done digital soundtracks. Khorns might reveal too much of the harshness of older optical soundtracks, though. Citizen Kane's marvelous score sounds a little harsh, for instance. Fantasia 2000 sounds glorious with Khorns, but the original Fantasia (1940) is a bit squeeky in parts (mouse reference not intended). Speakers with more veiling and schmooshing would tend to hide old optical harshness, but then you would miss the clarity, immediacy, and dynamics possible with Khorns.

Also, speaking of old films, with movies from before about 1990, you might have to do your own custom EQ for each individual movie. The habit used to be to record the individual musical "elements" without a lot of bass (to avoid accidental over-recording?), then crank it up in the bass and play with the dynamics to the filmmaker's preference when mixing the music with sound effects and dialog. With older films, even those with mag soundtracks, if the BD or DVD people go back to the original elements, they often fail to restore the bass and dynamics that are there in the thearical release. I can't imagine why, unless those puppies are just too young to know that there was often thunderous bass (when appropriate) in the films of the '50s and '60s, and that said bass & dynamics tended to be achieved in the mix, not in the elements. They usually do just fine with modern films, perhaps because digital elements don't have attenuated bass.

[o0O Bill O0o]

The Klipschorns would be fine for Blu-rays of movies transferred from magnetic soundtracks (most movies from 1953 to the digital age) or well done digital soundtracks. Khorns might reveal too much of the harshness of older optical soundtracks, though. Citizen Kane's marvelous score sounds a little harsh, for instance. Fantasia 2000 sounds glorious with Khorns, but the original Fantasia (1940) is a bit squeeky in parts (mouse reference not intended). Speakers with more veiling and schmooshing would tend to hide old optical harshness, but then you would miss the clarity, immediacy, and dynamics possible with Khorns.

Also, speaking of old films, with movies from before about 1990, you might have to do your own custom EQ for each individual movie. The habit used to be to record the individual musical "elements" without a lot of bass (to avoid accidental over-recording?), then crank it up in the bass and play with the dynamics to the filmmaker's preference when mixing the music with sound effects and dialog. With older films, even those with mag soundtracks, if the BD or DVD people go back to the original elements, they often fail to restore the bass and dynamics that are there in the thearical release. I can't imagine why, unless those puppies are just too young to know that there was often thunderous bass (when appropriate) in the films of the '50s and '60s, and that said bass & dynamics tended to be achieved in the mix, not in the elements. They usually do just fine with modern films, perhaps because digital elements don't have attenuated bass.

Gary, interesting comments. I would need some hard data to substantiate all of that, but I can see where you are coming from.

To the Original Poster (OP) the biggest issue with Klipschorns is that you need two 'adjacent' corners, 12' to 25' apart with a solid 16 ft^2 (that's 4' L X 4' W) of obstruction free space. With out looking at the manual, I think this is similarly stated there too. You can over come all of this by creating your own set of 'False Corners' (see Forums for more details) and if you need wider than 25' then add a Lascala ( Has similar Mid/Squaker and good sonic match for the Klipschorns.) When you add the LaScala there is a technical document here that shows one how to configure OR just use a multi-channel Audio Video Receiver (AVR) and turn Center to 'ON' or 'YES'.

I am not a expert, but I do have Klipschorns and a LaScala Center with an AVR and it sounds absolutely great to me, my family and all my guests. -For what it's worth-

Bill

[garyrc]

Gary, interesting comments. I would need some hard data to substantiate all of that, but I can see where you are coming from.

No truly hard data[].

On the harshness factor I have no data other than the experience that a film like Citizen Kane actually sounds more musical and generally better on the very cheap, all cone, Yamahas (with a Klipsch sub) in our living room than it does on the Klipschorns and Belle center in our music room. On the other hand, modern films sound terrific on the Khorns.

On the practice of recording the original elements without a lot of loud bass, or dynamics as wide as on the release prints -- that comes from years of buttonholing studio sound guys, both in LA, and at almost every premiere or preview I have attended. One of them was my old stereo recording professor. Audio memory is questioned by some, but, subjectively, to get the level of mid bass and low bass my friends and I remember in the 70 mm presentations, films like Around the World in 80 Days (1956) and Ben-Hur (1959) require about 8 to 10 dB bass boost. This is apparent in both the music and the effects. As to dynamics, during the crucifixion scene in Ben-Hur there is a thunderstorm and a suggestion of an earthquake that created quite a wind in the theater that we could feel on our faces, and shook the concrete floor. The DVDs sound relatively pitiful, unless the users provide a bass and volume boost. In Alien, in 70mm, in the famous scene I won't mention to avoid writing a spoiler, the sound is near deafening. On the disk, it fizzles. Same with little Drew Barrymore's screams in ET, to say nothing of ET's screams. I'm not sure whether this is due to the disk people putting a limiter or compressor in the line, or whether it is because the original elements don't contain dynamics as spectacular, said dynamics having been created by the filmmakers turning up the volume in the mix, a mix unused by the disk people. As you say, we would have to have some data on these particular films. Sometimes, extra dynamic range was achieved in the theater. For instance, the 70mm projectionists for Paint Your Wagon showed us written instructions from the studio that asked them to start the film at a certain volume, then crank it up to a louder level during the shots of the wagon carrening down the hill, and leave it high for the rest of the film. That way, they explained, they would avoid the audience rejecting a too high volume during the opening credits, but they would be unaware of the artificial increase as the wagon crashed -- something everyone would have expected to be loud -- and the rest of the film could be played at the higher volume needed to display the music as written (lots of ff pasages).

[o0O Bill O0o]

Gary, I know EXACTLY what you are writing about. I have one more to add. In the Matrix when Trinity & Neo Rescue Morpheus the mini gun and when the helicopter explode were one of my biggest memories to why I wanted a home theater. The volume peak seemed almost limitless! At home on my DVD it's totally clipped! see here (in clipped fashion)

[shake777]

psg, Its not going to happen for me. I can't give up my 11.2 surround; Its too good. The screen wall is 24 and the depth is about 21 since I have the option to change it a few feet one way or the other. I could even go another ten or more if I want. Thanks for taking an interest and I hope I get to at least hear some Khorns some day. Nic

[psg]

Double post.

[psg]

No worries! To each his own! I'm sure the system rocks as it is.

Just finish that basement and cover those concrete walls! []

[Youthman]

Can't wait to see your finished HT Shake. Looking awesome so far.

[shake777]

Ym, Much appreciated. I wonder if you've had a similar experience to mine over the weekend. I went to Stereo Exchange, one of the best shops in the City with plenty of high-end and I just don't think I'm going to get my moneys worth by spending thousands upon thousands of dollars. I think mine is very good as I'm sure is yours. If I had unlimited funds, I'd go for it but as for now my lust is tempered. Nic

[Youthman]

I wonder if you've had a similar experience to mine over the weekend.

Yep, I sure have. Take a look at this thread.

[garyrc]

I wonder if you've had a similar experience to mine over the weekend.

Yep, I sure have. Take a look at this thread.

Well, Youthman and shake777, I really wonder if some high end manufacturers are setting prices for people who want and need to pay top dollar, so they can feel that they have " the best." It reminds me of a limo touring service a friend's uncle ran. He arbitrarily tripled the price (based on proportional costs) of the deluxe tour, and gave it a fancy logo with a word buried in it. The word was a synthesis of Latin, Yiddish, and another language I forget. No one ever asked what it meant. It meant "F*** 'em good and deep."

I've always loved McIntosh, even though some of our friends among the Golden Ears have sometimes put it down as not really being High End ...... that being said, $30,000 for an amplifier and $100,000 for a pair of speakers is beyond outrageous.

I'm sure the parts McIntosh uses are the best, the workmanship magnificent, and the design probably shows a few varieties of brilliance.

One of the many qualities that are appealing about their top-of-the-line system is the incredible power in watts and in dB SPL. A 2,000 watt -- $30,000 --- amplifier! Man, that's a lot of power, that would provide incredible Sound Pressure Level headroom with their $100,000 speaker, which can really take it, right? Right! No doubt about it. I remember an article by a psychiatrist that talked about the lust for power -- horsepower, piranha power, pit bull power, and the like. Some people (often male) want their stuff to be the strongest and most powerful, and are likely to buy very beefy amplifiers. Years ago, they were attracted to brand names like Ampzilla. But, wait .... Technology Factory reports that the SPL produced by the speaker in question is 89 dB at 1 meter at 2.8 volts (I couldn't find this spec on McIntosh's site). A Klipschorn pressed and sealed into the required corner is rated at 105 dB at 1 watt (2.83 volts into 8 ohms nominal) at 1 meter, a 16 dB more efficient figure than that of the McIntosh speaker. A 100 watt amp (100 wts is the Khorn's power handling figure) into a Khorn looks like it would be the equivalent of over 4,000 watts into the McIntosh speaker. O.K., lets give 'em 3 dB ... 100 wts into a Khorn would still be the equivalent of over 2,000 watts into the Mac..

[Youthman]

I really wonder if some high end manufacturers are setting prices for people who want and need to pay top dollar, so they can feel that they have " the best."

Many years ago, when I worked for Circuit City, we went to a training by Monster Cable. They were teaching us why Monster is the best and what separates them from their competitors etc. At one point in the presentation, they brought out a $700 pair of speaker cables. They asked us if we thought they were worth $700. Some said yes, others said no. The Monster Rep said, "No...it's probably not worth $700. We just make them because we have customers that will pay that much."

So yes, as long as their is supply and demand, there will be overly priced products