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Everything posted by garyrc

  1. [Continued from previous post] Cinerama in our theater (Smilebox) Looking toward the back wall. My wife built the diffusors, and eagerly put them up, along with shelves, absorbers, etc., and solved many problems. For a few films from the magnetic era I sit at the desk behind the couch so I can fluidly ride the Volume control to put back the orchestral and effects dynamics they compressed out, e.g., the ship splintering in Ben-Hur (1959, 70mm and 6 channel ultra dynamic stereo in a 70mm theater), and the music in several places, when they mastered the dialog too high, or the music & effects too low. The volume control manipulations can’t be seen on screen. The Right Font corner. Looking down the right wall. [ran into the 2MB limit again, I guess we don't need the left wall
  2. Here is Gary’s and Annie’s Music Room/Library/Home Theater. Captions are below each picture. The room is 25 ft by 16+. wide, with a sloped ceiling, highest in the rear, that averages 10 ft. Full range Audyssey took out a few peaks, and we love the clarity, the convincing tonality, the clean transients, and the effortless, wide, dynamic range. We think our sound closely resembles the character of the orchestras we have listened to “live.” Entering. Annie and I deliberately did not fill the shelves with books, but put art objects and artifacts on them to provide diffusion and slight absorption. The front wall. The wall is covered in fabric, and hides the center channel speaker, which is a modified Belle Klipsch which is flush mounted in a bump-out sticking out of the other side of the wall. Flush mounting gains us 1 to 3 dB in the bass, and some bass extension, as well. It is a good timbre match above the 40 Hz Audyssey measurement says is the F3. The Belle is raised so that the tweeter is the same height as those in the Khorns. We put stock upgrades in the Khorns; they have the same guts as ones made in 2018. The fabric on the wall is acoustically transparent, as is the projection screen. With both fabrics in the way, we get about -1.75 dB at 16K. Audyssey compensates for that. The bump-out also contains a subwoofer, and quite a few diffusers. The front wall with the 130" wide (not diagonal) AT screen down. The screen height is such that someone with tri-focals can see the whole image through the tops of their glasses. Screen shot from the Main Viewing Position. This is what Panavision & CinemaScope look like. [continued on next series I post -- ran into the 2MB maximum]
  3. (4) My surrounds are Heresy IIs, which aren't as good as my front speakers (updated Klipschorns and a modified Belle Klipsch center), IMO, but keeping bass out of the H IIs, letting a sub do it, worked wonders. My FL, FR, and C crossover to the sub at 60 Hz, and the H IIs crossover at 80 Hz. (5) See (4) ....................... Many SACDs of classical and some of jazz are still available, including some new issues.
  4. It's terrific with SACD multichannel 5, 5.1, and reissues of "Quad." It's still pretty good with 2 channel sources and PLII Music. I resisted it for a while, then tried it, and am now in love with it.
  5. No knowledge ... all I can say is Laurel Canyon, where these speakers were apparently assembled, was a place where many musicians lived, hung out, got high, etc. There was a recording studio somewhere there where some of the concert music (not film oriented) of Miklós Rózsa was recorded, and several clubs down on Sunset where those speakers could have lived. A vast number of new bands lived in the Canyon because it was cheap! I shudder to think what it costs now! Here is a so-so shortish documentary: www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRJD5fBD9UY Ignore the part about the origins of hippies -- that happened a bit earlier in San Francisco and environs: The Haight, Golden Gate Park (with it's own assortment of naked people), The [original] Fillmore Auditorium, San Francisco State University, Telegraph Ave in Berkeley, University of California, Berkeley, Provo Park and, of course, the predecessors, the Free Speech Movement in 1964, The Beats, Greenwich Village NY, and Bohemia around the world.
  6. My guess is Forte IV plus (now or eventually) a very good subwoofer cut in at about 60 Hz, about 3 to 6 dB higher SPL than flat. Does your preamp, integrated, or receiver have a subwoofer output? I "managed" a pair of Klipschorns in a room your size for a while. The only disadvantage was that the "sweet spot" was only 1 chair wide.
  7. Proceed with caution if: The specs are given at 1K only ... a useless spec. The specs include THD, but not IM. Some (Parasound?)even include TIM. The roster of company executives includes Hassatan or Niccolò Machiavelli.
  8. As J. Gordon Holt once said, "Down with Flat!" The recordings aren't flat The speakers aren't flat The room is not flat Why would we want to "tune flat?" Tune to taste! With Klipschorns + Audyssey FLAT and tone controls (NO DEQ) and sub gain control: Often this at MLP: 30 Hz = FLAT 40 Hz = + 12 dB 100 Hz = +10 dB 150 Hz = + 7.5 dB Sloping down to FLAT @ 1K Hz From that point, pretty flat up to 6K Hz, Then: For dull recordings: Select Audyssey FLAT For neutral recordings: Select Audyssey Reference (slopes down, starting at 6K Hz to - 5 dB at 15K Hz) For bright recordings use treble control judiciously to turn down the treble while also using Audyssey Reference. For neutral recordings, it looks like this:
  9. @Blackcat, welcome to the forum! Don't mind us, some of us indulge in picayune distinctions. Basically ... "Bass" is both the lower part of the frequency spectrum and a fish. "Base" is that upon which something sits, or something so contemptible, mean-spirited, with a selfish lack of human decency, with uncontrolled "Base Instincts" that it has become characteristic of certain politicians.
  10. For a while, I had Klipschorns in a room that width, but about 14 feet high. Weird, right? They were fine, except only one person could occupy the sweet spot chair. The sound was fine tonally for two more folks, but their soundstage was narrower. You and your wife could probably put the right arm of one chair right up against the left arm of the other chair and get a good image.
  11. Yes, agreed. The front wall is the wall you see when facing front, where the front speakers are, etc., etc. A few reviewers still say it counter-rationally. At the moment, the way my room is set up now, I get depth. It would be interesting if we found depth increasing if we put 2' by 4' absorbers where a yardstick (or a longer stick) touches the side wall if placed flat on the midrange part of the speaker, as Chris A advised in his article on corner horn acoustics. The depth changes with the recording. I have a third, "center" channel (Belle Klipsch) buried in the front wall, about 1/16 of an inch behind where it would be if it was perfectly flush mounted. It is used with movies and with music, depending on the miking pattern used when they recorded it, and other aspects of the recording technique, determined by ear. "Rightness" prevails. Here we go again, " ... 'mike' and 'miking' are the grammatically preferred ways to describe your microphone setup." https://audiomav.com/micing-or-miking-how-to-describe-your-microphone-setup/ It would be interesting to see what a cross section of editors woud say about this -- you know, the ones who insist you can't say "a myriad of variables," but must say, "myriad variables."
  12. A little extra headroom doesn't hurt, especially if you are going to turn up a bass control. Every 3 dB increase doubles the power need in watts. To the degree that much of the oomph of music resides in the bass (~below 200 Hz) and low midrange (~200 Hz to maybe 600 Hz) and since many recordings attenuate the bass in order to turn up the overall volume (and compress it) to fight the industry's never ending and ill-advised "loudness war," that some of the "suits" want, but virtually all recording engineers and producers think is FUBAR (see Chris A, "The Missing Octave," and much more of his writing on this forum) I often find my bass control up 6 dB (quadruple the wattage needed in the bass). It's true, you can hit THX's max peak power (about 100 dB through the main speakers in a typical living room (105 dB in a huge -- theater sized -- room) with Heresies at a mere 30 watts (for 1/4 second, at 13 feet away), turning up the bass to the main speakers by 6 dB may need 120 watts for that 1/4 second.
  13. Speaker stands that allow a cavity below the speaker (i.e., a speaker on "legs") reduce bass, but this may or may not be a problem when using a subwoofer, depending on where the crossover to the sub is. The IVs are probably good to about 50 Hz -- when they get the extra bass loading from the floor -- and a somewhat higher than 50 Hz when they are not near the floor and are on stands with a cavity underneath. Although a piano goes down to 27.5 Hz, music is almost never written for the lowest keys, and your subwoofer will take care of that anyway. Except for the contrabassoon and pipe organ, most instruments of the orchestra stay above about 40 Hz. If the sub's crossover point is set at the typical 80 Hz, I'd think there would be no problem, but bass deterioration due to cavities has been reported (with other speakers) as high as 100 Hz, and you probably don't want your subwoofer/Heresy crossover point that high. Some people have closed up the cavity by tastefully enclosing it with veneered and stained plywood (not the really thin stuff; probably 1/2" or 3/4"). Even with closed stands, the Heresy still is deprived of some loading from the extent of the floor all around it, when it is on the floor, as designed. What about all those speakers we see on bookshelves? 1) Most are pretty close to the wall, and get some loading there, and from the books, etc. 2) The better true bookshelf speakers may be "voiced" to have slightly boosted bass compared to the Heresy IV, which is often on the floor. I agree with you that the soundstage is pretty low when on the floor, so If I had them they would be on fully enclosed stands, with a subwoofer crossed over a bit high (decided upon by ear), and the sub would be turned up slightly (ear, again), and the Heresies used with an integrated amp, or a preamp, or a receiver with a Bass Control to boost the Heresys' own bass a bit, which may fill out the mids a little.
  14. FIRST, try this: put each speaker in a room corner, push the speaker all the way into the corner, touching each wall, or within 1/16 inch of each wall, but aimed toward the main listening position. Corner placement should add about 3 dB to 6 dB to the bass, depending on the former location. To avoid early reflections from the nearby walls, put an absorber on each wall about where a yardstick would touch the wall if you held it flat against the front of speaker. If the absorber is 2 feet wide, that should be enough. Like this: If this doesn't give you enough bass, SECOND, try another amplifier with two features: 1) More power (at least 100 watts, both channels operating, at low distortion, probably 0.05% THD or better [like, 0.01% which is what you have now], 20 to 20,000Hz) and 2) tone controls. Don't listen to those who say avoid tone controls! A Bass Control turned up a bit can really help! The bass control probably won't affect the subwoofer, so turn the subwoofer gain knob up. Try crossing over to the subwoofer at 60 Hz and 80 Hz, and go with what sounds the best with bass heavy material.
  15. John, [Those of you who have heard this stuff way too often, skip it!] I've been ruminating on what makes the not necessarily "golden ears" dislike Klipsch, and other speaker companies that use horns in the mid and high frequencies (or even those that are fully horn loaded, like The Klipsch Jubilee and Klipschorn, old JBLs and Altecs). All of the above, including the 2/3 horn loaded Cornwall IV, sound incredibly like the classical orchestras I experienced and/or played in, as well as the marching band, jazz band, and Rock bands in Golden Gate Park. So what's the problem? Confirmation bias, when, and if, the "golden ears" hear horns. They have been told, time and again, "Horns are bad, honky, sound like singing through cupped hands," etc., so they hear artifacts that may or may not be there. Every concert hall, control room, recording location, microphone placement pattern, sounds different, but there is usually no way of knowing if what one is hearing is the speaker, the room, the listening position, the original room, etc. Some have not heard good horns, including one salesperson selling low dynamics, veiled, "boring" speakers that I encountered in the shadow of the Transamerica pyramid, who was running down horns without ever having heard one (he finally admitted that). Some need to show they can afford speakers costing from $100,000 to $4,000,000, even if they rarely listen to them, being so busy buying and selling the world. They, for whatever reason, like some other design approach better. That's O.K. with me, but they should to leave any preconceived notions at the door, if possible. When I selected Klipschorns, I very closely considered the very different big Bozaks (sweet), and, later, B&W 801 Fs (smooth). They all sounded very, very different, and I liked them all, but the Klipschorns sounded the most like my old orchestras, and were the most fun! John, I know what you mean about ear wax. I had mine removed, and I hear a lot more detail, etc. I recommend it to everyone, but have it done by a professional.
  16. You might run into comb filtering with two or more speakers playing exactly the same sound. Or not. The attached article will explain comb filtering. https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-is-it-comb-filtering/ Some people seem to get away with it, at least when the doubled speakers are woofers only ... but there are exceptions. Your Denon AVR-A100 has tone controls (they only appear and only work when Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume are OFF) ... you could get 6 dB Bass Boost with the Bass tone controls. Playing as loud as you do, Dynamic EQ won't be usable, anyway. Have you tried the separate Bass control? Do you use Audyssey? Have patience with it. You should really get a subwoofer (perhaps instead of getting any more amplification). Almost everyone who uses Audyssey, and plays loudly, turns up both the Bass control and turns up the subwoofer trim in the AVR AFTER running Audyssey (using all 8 microphone positions, but, in your case, out in the room or wherever your party goers will be). See Mike Thomas' https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-subwoofers-bass-transducers/2958528-guide-subwoofer-calibration-bass-preferences.html GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES Section II-C: Where And How To Add Bass. This will tell you how to add sub bass without clipping the line driver in the AVR, which may happen without advice like Mike's. Clipping it will sound "hashy," perhaps like "screaming." Once you are there, you may want to read Mikes entire guide. At Main Volume at 0, if you have used Audyssey to make 0 the official reference volume, you should get 105 dB instantaneous peaks, which, unless you have a huge room, will sound even louder, and a bit distorted, due to early reflections and modulation distortion. For home sized rooms, THX recommends a maximum of 100 dB (or 110 dB through a good subwoofer) in any plausible living room, including a home "Great Room." Before putting these levels through a speaker, make sure it is rated for that high a level in dB and that power in watts. A (powered) subwoofer would take some of the burden off of the RF7II by doing some of the heavy lifting. If you cross over at about 60Hz, you will still get tight, clear bass above 60Hz, and "beefy, impactive, slam" below 60 Hz, but you must set your main two channels (LF&RF) to SMALL and 60Hz crossover to the subwoofer to make this work. Best of luck!
  17. I surely am older than dirt! The best sound my fellow (10th grade) orchestra members and I ever heard, only to be beaten or equaled about 21 years later by a very, very few direct-to-disk/SME/Ortofon (light wt.) combinations, and very, very rarely equaled since by a few Blu-rays or SACDs, was a 22.5 ips. 6 channel, magnetic, recording of a 114 piece orchestra in 1957, that turned those few of us who were not yet audiophiles into them, instantly, Alakazam! As a fairly large group of us were leaving the theater (yes it was a film) we realized we could not walk out on the ultra-dynamic exit music, so we went down near the screen and found that it still sounded great, even through the damn curtains! The vinyl was horrible. We EQd it 6 ways for Sunday, but played it over and over anyway. 45, or so, years later, the DVD was passable with tender, loving EQ. In those days, for 70mm, there were 5 big speaker systems behind the screen, and a 6th channel, with signal tones guiding its surround sound to left, right, rear or all off-screen speakers. The film in question was the original version of Around the World in 80 days, in 70mm Todd-AO, gloriously before the X-Curve, with the sound custom set up in each 70mm theater, the goal being flat from typical seats, beginning to roll off at 12K Hz or so, which was the upper limit of both JBL and Altec theater speakers in those days; the magnetic tracks extended to 15K Hz a la Ampex professional tape machines then, and Ampex was hired to design Todd-AO sound. The original sound elements, in 6 channel, were recorded of full coat 35mm magnetic film (with a 24mm wide magnetic surface (.9449"), providing a wider surface for each track than 1/2 track 1/4" tape, and later transferred to the magnetic tracks on the film shown below. 80 Days played well into its 2nd year in San Francisco. When it finally came out in 35mm mono optical, it was unrecognizable.
  18. Too bad they didn't have 4 of these.
  19. I didn't see any of the zillion JBL D130s, or any of the rest of the wall.
  20. Outdoor concerts may have better imaging. The few times I heard a string quartet outside, or a Sitar and Tabla, this was true. And Rock, well, a different sound, big, filling a literal sound stage. From a distance, as you walked into the park, the sound would change with the wind. Up as close as you dared (still fairly far back) one big curtain of sound, creating its own wind, but with some directionality -- definitely not mono. JBL had an ad about such a setup that was left on, while the band had a break. A passing griffin wandered up on stage, coughed into a microphone, and all that was left was a crater. Indeed most of the custom speakers used by the bands had JBL, sometimes Altec drivers. One experiment used EV T-35 tweeters, like the hand selected T-35s that morphed into K-77s in vintage Klipsch. A friend loaned the Dead some Klipschorns right toward the beginning (maybe they were still the Warlocks then), they liked them, but needing the corner may have stopped them. During the '60s these concerts were free in Golden Gate Park, Provo Park in Berkeley, Lake Merritt in Oakland. The Dead, Country Joe, the Airplane, the whole bunch, sometimes interspersed with chants and poems by the likes of Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti. I remember imaging most of the time. Often there were two huge banks of speakers, one on the Left (naturally), and one on the Right, played in stereo. A few years later The Dead had their wall: There was one glorious time when the mayor closed Haight Street to cars, and the bands set up at the end of the street. The mayor told the police, "No pot busts," and people were dancing in the street, and on the roofs. I didn't notice any imaging that day except strictly in my head, but it was a marvelous display.
  21. Protesters against the practices of the UC Berkeley administration in 1964/65 wore punch cards dangling on ribbons around their necks with "HUMAN - Do not Fold, Spindle, or Mutilate" written in big letters on them. If any of you old timers saw chart recorder sweeps of, say, Heritage speakers in the Paleolithic, let me ask my question another way, how might a chart recorder frequency sweep of a speaker look compared to a modern REW curve? Might it resemble 1/3 octave, 1/6 octave, or what? Go ahead and guess.
  22. From close seats (row 10, 9, 8, etc.) with a full sized symphony orchestra, and no audio, there can be "good" imaging. From distant seats, certain instruments (like orchestra bells) are still pretty localizable, but most are not.
  23. Thanks so much! See your messages.
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