m00n Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 I called Harman Kardon to compair the HK AVR 520 to the Denon AVR3802. I asked about the difference in watts why Denon was so much heigher, yet the prices were the same. He said that HK operates at a much heigher current than denon which balances out the fact that the HK only puts out 75 watts vs the Denon which puts out 110 watts. He also said the when you pump out heigher current, less watts, it produces a cleaner sound than lower current heigher watts. Any truth to this? ------------------ the m00n system RF-3II Front floors RC-3II Center RS-3II Surrounds RSW-12 Subwoofer Harman Kardon AVR 520 Toshiba SD 3205 DVD Samsung 27" Flatscreen c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 04-24-2002 at 03:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 mOOn, In response to: "When you pump out higher current, less watts, it produces a cleaner sound than lower current, higher watts. Any truth to this?" In a word, YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 moon, folks have been telling you this about hk since your 1st post on here. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: moon, folks have been telling you this about hk since your 1st post on here Alright, so I get too many things whoorling around in my melon to keep it all straight . Cheech! Chastize a guy why don't ya. Ok so then that settles it. I am keeping my Harman Kardon. So what if it doesnt have 7 powered channels. At least it does have channes 6 and 7 and I can add a amp later to push them. But if it produces a cleaner, then that's more important to me. Ya know, this is crazy. There is way Way WAY to much to choose from. ------------------ the m00n system RF-3II Front floors RC-3II Center RS-3II Surrounds RSW-12 Subwoofer Harman Kardon AVR 520 Toshiba SD 3205 DVD Samsung 27" Flatscreen c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 04-24-2002 at 02:47 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Moon I am not an electrical engineer. So I can't answer this question for you in detail - but - This question could open up a huge can of worms between people who measure an amps power by current (Amps) or power used or produced (watts). Just listen to the AMPs hooked up to the same speakers you have at home to make your decision. Don't get too hung up on the Spec's JM This message has been edited by j-malotky on 04-24-2002 at 02:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 j, no it's not crap it's actually a fact that higher current power produces better speaker performance than higher voltage power. that is unless somebody's a masochistic high voltage maniac. still the difs can be subtle among better quality amps/receivers. totally agree best to listen w/ your stuff at your place. some seem to want others to make their decisions on what sounds best to them. & that's their right. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Part of my problem is that there are NO stores in my local area that sell Harman kardon and Denon together. Hell, I couldn't find a store that had Harman and Klipsch together either. I had to take my chances. I did hear Yamaha and Denon on the Klipsch, but by the time you get home and listen to the HK, you don't remember what you heard. Well, at least I don't. I do like the sound of the harman with my R3IIs, but something tells me that the R7's would sound really Really REALLY nice in my living room. I can tell you this, I am growing impatient. I have had my system for over a week now and I still have not yet had the chance to crank the power and GET IT ON! The wife and tator tots are always home. ------------------ the m00n system RF-3II Front floors RC-3II Center RS-3II Surrounds RSW-12 Subwoofer Harman Kardon AVR 520 Toshiba SD 3205 DVD Samsung 27" Flatscreen c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 04-24-2002 at 02:58 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Now I'm a little confused as well. Given that WATTS is a product of voltage and current (Volts X Current = Watts), statements like "When you pump out higher current, less watts, it produces a cleaner sound than lower current, higher watts" and "HK operates at a much heigher current than denon which balances out the fact that the HK only puts out 75 watts vs the Denon which puts out 110 watts" makes no sense. The voltage is a constant, right? ~120V. Current will vary depending on the load. In this case, speaker impedence. The combo of voltage and whatever the current turns out to be based upon speaker impedence determines the watts. So how can you have a 'higher current/less watts situation given a constant voltage and a reference impedence (let's say 8 ohms)?? ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Boa After thinking more - I edited my response. If memory serves me right. Watts or power is calculated by taking Amps times volts. If the voltage is much different in the components you can require more of less amperage to create the 75 watts. Edwarde - I don't think it is the power of the unit draws off the wall, but the power of the output stage circuit. JM This message has been edited by j-malotky on 04-24-2002 at 03:11 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 mOOn, Power is proportional to current. Higher current is more power than lower current. Power is amps times volts. The trick is at what load impedance! High current with low voltage is low impedance, like 4 Ohms. High voltage at low current is high impadance, like 16 Ohms. The lowest distortion load is what ever the particular amp likes to see! I am no expert on what load modern amps like to see, but a higher impedance would seem to be more agreeable. Amplifiers without output transformers usually put out more power into low impedance though. Lower load impedance pulls more current from the amp. That MIGHT mean more distortion. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Edwarde, I think the salesman was trying to say: "All other things being equal, a high-current amp will produce a cleaner sound through accurate high-efficiency speakers than a low-current amp, even if the 'stated max watt output root mean square' of the lower current amp is higher than that of the high-current amp". If this indeed is what the salesman INTENDED to say, then I must still agree with him Does that kinda help clear things up? Now I am gettin confused, dammit!!! LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 mOOn, The reason a "high current" amp might sound better than, uh, an amp that is not a "high cuurent" amp is because speakers do not present a simple resistive load to the amp. If you have two amps, and you connect them to a (non-existent) speaker that has a uniform, simple 8 ohm resistance (that is, the resistance neither increases nor decreases with frequency, and the phase angle is zero under all conditions), and measure the power they produce, then the total power output will be a meaningful number. However, such a speaker does not exist. Real world speakers are much more complex. Most speakers will have a "resistance" (actually, impedence is the proper term when we're considering an AC current like music rather than a DC current) that varies significantly. The "8 ohm" speaker may have a measured 8 ohm resistance at, say, 1kHz, but might be much lower (possibly below 1 ohm) or much higher (many dozens of ohms) at other frequencies. In addition to this, the nature of the impedence might vary significantly from highly capacitive in nature to highly inductive. If an amplifier has a limited ability to "dump current" into this complex load, it will be less able to control the speaker. Lets say the speaker's impedence drops to a very low value in the upper bass, and it's a very inductive load at this point. You're listening to a song that has a VERY dynamic guy on electric bass. The "high current" amp will have a better shot at producing this sound accurately, with a lot of impact, pace, snap, dynamics, whatever you call it. The amp that is current starved will sound much less, uh, whatever. Sort of lumpy as opposed to taught. On the other hand, take those same two amps and connect them to a speaker that presents a very uniform, undemanding load, and they will sound a lot more similar. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 PS This, by the way, is one of the (many) reasons why Al's crossovers sound better than the stock crossovers - they are designed to present a more consistent and less reactive load to the amp. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 Well, I should I feel inerrior because about 90% of everything you all have said has sounded like foreign audiofileaneese that hurt to read., or should I just be happy that I got the jist? I am happy that I got the jist of it all. that's why I am sticking with my Harmon Kardon. BTW, don't get me wrong, I do very much enjoy the tech talk. I may not understand it all the first time, but will reread it again. I often times need to read something, think about it, comeback and read it again before I really understand it. Not to mention, when people can explain it like you guys have, it makes me feel that your backing it up with fact, not just hear-say or personal opinion. Thanks ALL! ------------------ the m00n system RF-3II Front floors RC-3II Center RS-3II Surrounds RSW-12 Subwoofer Harman Kardon AVR 520 Toshiba SD 3205 DVD Samsung 27" Flatscreen c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 04-24-2002 at 05:28 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boa12 Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 i'm definitely not saying denon aren't high current amps. moon, i think the end result of the hk guy's pitch is valid. get used to your system & get it workin right & crankin & more knowledge before you shell out more bucks for something else. what you have now is fine til you get there. you may regret any hasty decisions now later down the road. that's all. ------------------ My Home Systems Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Yeah, mOOn, I hear ya....i like my HK900+ I bought new in 75 alot too ...just think, back in those days you had a choice between buyin what I got or payin the rent for a year...a grand was alot of money in '75!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted April 24, 2002 Author Share Posted April 24, 2002 quote: Originally posted by HDBRbuilder: Yeah, mOOn, I hear ya....i like my HK900+ I bought new in 75 alot too ...just think, back in those days you had a choice between buyin what I got or payin the rent for a year...a grand was alot of money in '75!!! OMG, you are still using that? If that's the case, then audio equipment but not age nearly as fast as PC equipment. If I have something in the PC world that's even 5 years old, it's sitting on a shelf collecting dust. HOWEVER! If you are indeed still using that HK, then DAMN! LONG LIVE HK! Oh and boa12, ya, I am done trying to worry about it. It's time to sit back and enjoy it. If I keep worrying about things like, "Should I have purchased this other receiver, or that other line of Klipsch speakers?", I will never be happy with what I got. That kind of defeats the purpose of buying the thing in the first place right? Na, I just need to get my NEW (better be new this time) HK 520 tomorrow from the store where I bought the one I have now. Take it home set it up, relax and watch a cool movie! ------------------ the m00n system RF-3II Front floors RC-3II Center RS-3II Surrounds RSW-12 Subwoofer Harman Kardon AVR 520 Toshiba SD 3205 DVD Samsung 27" Flatscreen c>Microsoft XBOXc> f> This message has been edited by m00n on 04-24-2002 at 06:10 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 m00n... Yep...been using the ole HK 900+ ever since then...hell, I even deejayed college parties with it for 3 years in the mid-80's...and in 1992 I had a pot on one of the 4 amps start to go out so I got em all replaced along with one pigtail bulb for the front face of it...50 bucks!!!!...LOL!...the guy who did the work was so excited to get to work on one that he just charged for parts and their shipping!!!...LOL!...He tested it, told me it slightly exceeded new specs in all areas...and said that was the first time he had ever seen that on a piece that old!!! HK had one helluva rep in the days that I bought it...and it was their top of the line model in 75...and maybe one of the best if not THE best 4-channel receiver ever made!!!!..Hell, it better be...it weighs a ton!!!!...I outta know, I have moved it around a million times!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaapong Posted April 24, 2002 Share Posted April 24, 2002 Umm, I'm feeling pretty dumb here since I don't know much about audio... but there is one question How could you pump more current through the speaker coil and outputting less watts ? (giving constant impendence, you 'd actually need higher voltage to push more current through) Or maybe I really don't know what I'm talking about... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted April 25, 2002 Share Posted April 25, 2002 kaapong, You can't. The issue here is the amps ability to keep the voltage up in the face of a demanding load. Let's say you have an amp that can product 100 watts into an simple 8 ohm load. Since power equals voltage squared divided by resistance, that implies that we're "swinging" a smidge over 28 volts into that load. Since power also equals voltage times current, we're putting a bit less than 4 amps into the 8 ohm load. If the amp can produce 4 amps without overtaxing the power supply, and it can swing 28 volts in its output stage, it will produce 100 watts into the load all day. Now let's connect that amp to a real speaker, that has a published spec that says the speaker is an 8 ohm load. We want to push 100 watts into the speaker. The amp must hold a 28 volt potential across the speaker to achieve this 100 watt output. Now, suppose the speaker does not have a uniformly flat impedance, but one that ranges from quite low at some frequencies to quite high at others. Where the impedance is high, the current requirement will be low. For example, if at some point in the frequency response the impedence rises to, say, 20 ohms (not unusual for a ported speaker at its resonance point, so lets say this 20 ohm peak is at 40Hz), then using voltage squared divided by resistance equals 100 watts, we see that we need to provide 44 volts at about 2.2 amps. Assuming the amp can swing 44 volts, and that should not be a problem, this amp could play a 40Hz signal at a 100 watt level if it can produce 2.2 amps of current. Now, lets look at what happens below that resonant frequency. It is not unusual for the impedance to drop alarmingly low below the resonance point of a ported speaker. If the impedance drops to, say, 2 ohms at 25Hz, how well would this amp produce a 25Hz signal, like a good whack on a bass drum? Well, again using some basic math, 100 watts into 2 ohms requires a voltage of 14 volts, and therefore a current capability of a smidge over 7 amps. If the power supply cannot provide 7 amps of current, then the voltage will droop, and the maximum power into this speaker at 25Hz will be less than 100 watts. Suppose the amp cannot supply more than 5 amps. The voltage will droop to 10 volts, and the power will drop to 50 watts. The amp will not be able to play as dynamically into the low impedance load that occurs at the 25Hz frequency. If you had a different amp that was rated at only 75 watts into 8 ohms (maximum 24.5 volts), but had the ability to provide a lot of current, that lower powered amp would actually play louder at 25Hz because it would not be constrained by the current limit. I know this was a rather verbose answer, but I hope it conveys the idea. An amp that is not limited in the amount of current it can produce will not suffer as much when faced with a difficult speaker. by the way, this was one of the reasons why some of the fearsomely high powered receivers from Japan back in the late 70's sounded so bad. There were several (Matsushita's various brands, Pioneer, others) that were rated at or above 300 watts per channel. However, their power supplies were dinky, and they could not provide a lot of current. Hook em up into a demanding speaker, and they sounded awful. Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System This message has been edited by Ray Garrison on 04-25-2002 at 11:15 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.