Heresy woofer options with a sub

[MikeFord]

PS, how do the cabinets look?

Abysmal. HBR, painted black, some cosmetic damage to edges and corners.

I'm at a familiar crossroads, one foot in the water, one foot on land. Despite what seemed like a good deal at the moment, $251 on ebay with a semi local pickup, I think I chose poorly. For around $100 to $150 I can make them (assuming the rest of the drivers are ok, which I intend to check asap) functional again, but the cabinets need serious wood project time. I could also buy a nice looking newer version of the Heresy's or a set of Forte II for about $250 (both local enough to pickup). I'm almost certain I am buying the Forte II today. The "smart" future of the HBR I think is as spare parts for a nicer cabinet.

[Islander]

I could also buy a nice looking newer version of the Heresy's or a set of Forte II for about $250 (both local enough to pickup).

.

Probably the better way to go. It's nearly always better and more economical to pay a bit more for something that is in good shape, rather than paying a bit less now for something that needs to be restored, will cost more in the end, and will likely not look as good as the "near-mint" stuff you may be able to find.

When dealing with more expensive speakers like Khorns or La Scalas, and if you have the restoration skills, buying scruffy may make sense, but not with Heresy speakers, where you can usually find a good pair for $300-500.

[Ironsave]

You obviously understand that I meant they start seriously dropping off below 60hz.

No.That is not what you said. Why would I think you meant other than what you said?

My point was and is still valid.

The way you restated it, perhaps more so in a vague way. The way you originally stated it, no.

In any case, Heresys require a subwoofer for many applications no matter what you do to them. And if you need a subwoofer, there is not much of a reason to chase a little extra base response out of them.

Anyone who owns Heresy Is and is familiar with the speaker and their specs knows they start to really drop off around 60hz.

Do you own a pair or did you just look up the specs?

There are many Heresy owners who run them 2 channel without a sub......

I often do so still in 2 channel mode. (Depends if I am doing Classic stuff like The Doors or Everly Brothers, no sub needed, compared to Cradle of Filth; which benefits from a good sealed sub).

The cabinet resealing does make an improvement; so we disagree.

There are other improvements to do; are they also not worht it?

(Moray has some great ideas on the mid horns and Groom has probably done it all!)

I believe Groomslakearea as well as Moray and I am sure others that have done this and it made a difference.

Chasing the "little extra bass response" out of them was worth it for me and others who have done it.

Once again, do you own a pair? Have you tried resealing them? Have you done an A-B test?

Even RF7s benefit from a sub for HT; and they pound bass compared to a Heresy.

[Ironsave]

OP, you can probably find Heresy I cabs in pretty good shape for around $50.

I have seen them posted here several times......

Good Luck.

[Malcolm]

Therefore a Forte should sound just like a Hersey II? Mine don't.

Of course not. They have different box designs and volumes. Even with the same exact woofer they will sound different.

[MikeFord]

OP, you can probably find Heresy I cabs in pretty good shape for around $50.

I have seen them posted here several times......

Good Luck.

I wonder what pretty bad shape pair of boxes would go for?

Leaving now to pick up the pair of Forte, maybe I instead of II, but $250 and in shape they can go into the livingroom.

[Ironsave]

$250 for decent shape Forte I or II is a nice price.

Excellent all around speakers...... [Y]

[Malcolm]

Anyone who owns Heresy Is and is familiar with the speaker and their specs knows they start to really drop off around 60hz.

Any one who has measured them or even run a simulation using Thiele Small parameters knows they begin to roll off a bit above 100Hz and are 3dB down by around 60Hz, as I said.

Do you own a pair or did you just look up the specs?

Did you look at my avatar? I currently have 8 Heresys dating from mid 60s to early 80s. I got my first pair in 1972 and still have them. I have had others, including a pair of 84s I got rid of because of the difference in the midrange driver. You might try looking up the specs. The specs for the Heresy III give the frequency response as 58 to 20kHz +- 3dB, somewhat better than the earlier versions. In other words, the 3dB down point is around 60Hz.

There are many Heresy owners who run them 2 channel without a sub......

And so have I for many, many years. They are quite adequate for a lot of music. But as I said, there are some applications where you will need a sub, And if you need a sub, there is no reason to chase after extra bass out of the Heresys, at least in terms of frequency response. You aren't going to get much more in a sealed box design without losing efficiency or going to a different box design, but then they wouldn't be Heresys. You could use a woofer with higher Xmax so you could play louder down low before reaching the mechanical limit, or one with better power handling capability so you could play louder down low before you reached the thermal limits. But if you are running them in a typical home environment this isn't necessary. It is already hard to stay in any reasonble size room with them when they are cranked anywhere near their limit.

There are other improvements to do; are they also not worht it?

There are lots of modifications that have been suggested on this site over the years. Whether they are improvements or not is in the ear of the listener. I have tried some of them. If you want my opinion, you will have to be more specific. The one modification I would suggest for Heresys with paper in oil capacitors is to replace them. I use metalized polypropylene capacitors. You might want to use something else. I won't go into detail about it because it has already been discussed thoroughly in other threads and this thread is about woofers with a sub.

Have you tried resealing them? Have you done an A-B test?

Yes and yes. And I even measured them before and after. Couldn't find a significant difference. Of course, I had to rely on memory. There is no way to A-B test the same speaker before and after a modification at the same time. And A-Bing two different speakers, one modified and one unmodified, won't yield reliable results because no two speakers are identical to start with.

[DavidF]

"Of course not. They have different box designs and volumes. Even with the same exact woofer they will sound different. "

That would be part of the difference, yes. I tried the Hersey woofer is a Forte box. It was boomy and thick in the mid bass. So swapping multiple woofers into a given bass enclosure might be an issue as far as the low end, it sounds like to me. But there is a difference, too, in the power range. The system integrated a bit better with some additional attenuation of the mids and highs. The Forte woofer may be a little more sensitive, granted, but is the Heresy woofer as flat as the Forte woofer through the xover to the mids? Did not sound like it to me.

I have worked with other non-Klipsch systems and from my experience the woofer response at its high end does effect the system sound. Sometimes to a great extent, sometimes not so much. I have not tried different woofers in the Heresy enclosure, with the Heresy crossover and with the Heresy's mid horn.. So, for my part I will leave it that the OP should consider your experience with different Heresy models as more relevant than my experience. Thanks.

[DavidF]

PS, how do the cabinets look?

Abysmal. HBR, painted black, some cosmetic damage to edges and corners.

I'm at a familiar crossroads, one foot in the water, one foot on land. Despite what seemed like a good deal at the moment, $251 on ebay with a semi local pickup, I think I chose poorly. For around $100 to $150 I can make them (assuming the rest of the drivers are ok, which I intend to check asap) functional again, but the cabinets need serious wood project time. I could also buy a nice looking newer version of the Heresy's or a set of Forte II for about $250 (both local enough to pickup). I'm almost certain I am buying the Forte II today. The "smart" future of the HBR I think is as spare parts for a nicer cabinet.

I had good luck in rehab of some heresy cabinets. Used bondo to square up the corners. Used a 2 foot piece of 2x4 with heavy grit sand paper stapled end to end to avoid rounding the edges/corners. Then applied new veneer. With all the square edges of the Heresy enclosure it was not too difficult and the results looked good. New paint on the baffles front and back and almost like new.

[Ironsave]

[:|]

Anyone who owns Heresy Is and is familiar with the speaker and their specs knows they start to really drop off around 60hz.

Any one who has measured them or even run a simulation using Thiele Small parameters knows they begin to roll off a bit above 100Hz and are 3dB down by around 60Hz, as I said.

Do you own a pair or did you just look up the specs?

Did you look at my avatar? I currently have 8 Heresys dating from mid 60s to early 80s. I got my first pair in 1972 and still have them. I have had others, including a pair of 84s I got rid of because of the difference in the midrange driver. You might try looking up the specs. The specs for the Heresy III give the frequency response as 58 to 20kHz +- 3dB, somewhat better than the earlier versions. In other words, the 3dB down point is around 60Hz.

There are many Heresy owners who run them 2 channel without a sub......

And so have I for many, many years. They are quite adequate for a lot of music. But as I said, there are some applications where you will need a sub, And if you need a sub, there is no reason to chase after extra bass out of the Heresys, at least in terms of frequency response. You aren't going to get much more in a sealed box design without losing efficiency or going to a different box design, but then they wouldn't be Heresys. You could use a woofer with higher Xmax so you could play louder down low before reaching the mechanical limit, or one with better power handling capability so you could play louder down low before you reached the thermal limits. But if you are running them in a typical home environment this isn't necessary. It is already hard to stay in any reasonble size room with them when they are cranked anywhere near their limit.

There are other improvements to do; are they also not worht it?

There are lots of modifications that have been suggested on this site over the years. Whether they are improvements or not is in the ear of the listener. I have tried some of them. If you want my opinion, you will have to be more specific. The one modification I would suggest for Heresys with paper in oil capacitors is to replace them. I use metalized polypropylene capacitors. You might want to use something else. I won't go into detail about it because it has already been discussed thoroughly in other threads and this thread is about woofers with a sub.

Have you tried resealing them? Have you done an A-B test?

Yes and yes. And I even measured them before and after. Couldn't find a significant difference. Of course, I had to rely on memory. There is no way to A-B test the same speaker before and after a modification at the same time. And A-Bing two different speakers, one modified and one unmodified, won't yield reliable results because no two speakers are identical to start with.

Again...... You have your points and beliefs; and I have mine.

Agree to disagree on everything but the caps. Changing them makes a nice little improvement.

(And the specs; which I already said what I was getting at in my original response. Excuse me for not being 100% technically accurate ).[:|]

[Malcolm]

The system integrated a bit better with some additional attenuation of the mids and highs.

Your experience is quite valid. It mostly comes down to phase of the sounds coming out of the woofer and squawker. If they are in proper phase relative to each other, everything works as expected. If not, you get unwanted interactions. The match is seldom perfect, but usually good enough. Sometimes an audible improvement can be made by simply swapping the connections on the woofer or squawker. When Klipsch made one of the many woofer changes in the Heresy they changed to a Type D Network. After doing some testing, Klipsch decided it sounded better with one pair of connections reversed. That resulted in the Type E Network and instructions for upgrading the Type D Network were published in a Dope from Hope issue.

[MikeFord]

I had good luck in rehab of some heresy cabinets. Used bondo to square up the corners. Used a 2 foot piece of 2x4 with heavy grit sand paper stapled end to end to avoid rounding the edges/corners. Then applied new veneer. With all the square edges of the Heresy enclosure it was not too difficult and the results looked good. New paint on the baffles front and back and almost like new.

Unfair to have called them abysmal, more abysmal like, I need to pull the backs and grilles and give them an unbiased assessment. OTOH they are lacquer black, so some sanding, filler, and a fresh coat of paint and they may be fine, or at least fine from five feet.

I took a 45 min drive to the beach, did a little unexpected haggling, then handed the man $250 and loaded a pretty nice pair of one owner dark walnut Forte's in my car (not II). Grille cloth is a little wooly looking, cabs need treatment of Old English furniture polish, but these will be in my livingroom within a week.

***No chance to make even a peep of sound out of any of these so far, maybe tomorrow.