Heresy III (latest version) modfication

[StephenM]

That said these are by no stretch of the imagination SOTA parts so there is no reason not to upgrade and expect improvements in performance.

I'd have to disagree. You may well get different, but there is no guarantee different will be better, especially when one considers that Heresy III is (reasonably well) engineered to work around the parts that are in it, versus this guy potentially selecting parts because they cost a lot and look fancy.

[Groomlakearea51]

With all due respect, modifying the Heresey 3 as suggested is probably going to yield little or benefit. It will certainly decrease the value of the cabinet however.

If you need to experiment (and we all do), I would suggest experimenting with geometry of the set up. Are they in corners, on the floor, near a wall etc.?This will have a far bigger and better impact than what some of the folks are advocating.

In either case, good luck

Agreed. And I certainly don't think there is anything "cheap" about the Heresy III crossover...

I also agree, and strongly suggest that the best route is to fool around with an older (as in less expensive....) pair of H-II's, and install the H-II kits.... Then... start fooling around.

[H]

[StephenM]

I don't see any reason for anybody not to build an upgraded crossover.

It's no sweat off my back either way. I just think its a waste of time if he has little or no idea what he's doing. I'd trust the results of a competent engineer working with inexpensive but effective parts over a guy who doesn't have a clue picking parts at random off a shelf based on cost and shininess.

A shift of 10% cabinet volume for brace material is no big deal.

Considering that you haven't measured anything you've done, I have to take this with a big grain of salt. You might like the results, but if you're not measuring anything, you don't really know what is happening and how big of a deal it may or may not be to someone else.

It's not tinkering it's finishing the job that did not get finished for what ever reason.

Of course its tinkering. Klipsch isn't some halfassed outfit selling junk, and the Heresy is hardly a poorly engineered bargain basement speaker.The Heresy III is a well engineered and finely crafted $1700 speaker from what is indisputably one of the greatest speaker manufacturers in the world. If a couple dollars of extra bracing would have resulted in a great improvement in sound, there is little doubt in my mind they would have included it.

One other question for you moray: what is your experience with the Heresy III?

[moray james]

That's fine everyone is intitled to thier opinion. Remember that I did suggest that the OP build up a fresh set of crossovers to experiment with and to keep the stock units as a reference. There is zero problem here. Best regards Moray James.

[StephenM]

There is zero problem here.

So long as the OP is aware that it isn't a guarantee of superior performance, but an experiment with the hopes of superior performance, I agree.

[Groomlakearea51]

Good point from StephenM. I have fooled around with the H-III kit in the H-II's (for several years, being one of the first to obtain the kits. I can get there with all of the other modifications to H-I's, and in some cases get better in the "voicing", but that's only for my ears and my applications in which I use the bazillion Heresy's I own. The only possible thing that may help that crossover (until we have all had 10 years to screw around with it....), is Speakerfritz's idea.

The cabinet flex on a Heresy is, well, both inconsequential, and not really worthwhile to attempt to address in a cost effective manner (short of constructing a double thick cabinet). Even then, it's cost vs benefit.

Moray's work is impressive and certainly shows a dedication to the "H-Box", but from a practical application standpoint for the majority of H users, neither practical or readily "doable". I would like to see flex measurements, but the measurement equipment to see the flex of the cabinet walls would be rather expensive, involving mirrors, lasers, a nice lab, etc.

Me? I have often thought about making a cabinet out of "concrete board" which has the flexibility of the Hoover Dam, but the weight alone, not to mention how to finish it in some way that allows me to place it in my home where my wife will see it, has pretty much relegated that idea to a "thought experiment" (in tribute to Albert Einstein.....)

[StephenM]

I would like to see flex measurements, but the measurement equipment to see the flex of the cabinet walls would be rather expensive, involving mirrors, lasers, a nice lab, etc.

While I won't claim to be an expert on the subject, afaik, the tool needed to measure the pertinent cabinet resonance would be something like the plastic-tape accelerometer that Stereophile uses.

http://search.digikey.com/us/en/products/1-1001220-0/MSP1001-ND/279641

Of course, I presume it isn't just as simple as plugging it in and getting a nice graph like Stereophile gets either.

[Groomlakearea51]

True. I was thinking about mechanical distortion measurements only by use of an optical interferometer method.

[moray james]

If the Op reads and asks questions and follows his ear there is no reason that he cannot end up with a fine sounding set of speakers and quite possibly a better set than what he started with.

I am sure that if you were to do some basic research into cabinet design you too will find that a 10% volume shift is not an issue. I don't have to measure a thing to know this. I have worked on enough project to see this is infact the case. This is a pointless arguement anyway. If I install brace work which stops or reduces my cabinet distortion and as a result of the slight cabinet volume reduction my 2 db down point shifts up lets say 5 Hz. so what? The He 3 does not make any deep bass and requires a sub(s) to make deep bass and plus or minus 5 Hz. is meaningless to anything here. You are worried about 5 Hz. of bass response in a speaker design which is likly to be used with a sub(s) but you are not in any way concerned with a cabinet which has zero braces? I have read here on this forum accounts of people driving Chorus speaker with loud low bass hard enough to have the rear baffle slap against the mid driver. You want any panel resonance to be above the passband of the driver in the cabinet.

I don't see why you seem to think that making physical changes to a cabinet is some sort of insult to Klipsch or that Klipsch are the only competitent people capable of building a box. I find it disrespectful that you persist to imply that any who would dare to change what Klipsch would do are somehow tinkering fools. There is such a thing as "good enough" and any manufacturer has to know where that point lies so they do not spend more of their profits than necessary. Empty boxes will continue to reach the market untill consumers demand better.If you are happy with the way the Heresy sounds and is built that is fine for you but for me it represents a starting point. I have a pair of Heresy and a pair of H3. If adding brace work to my H3 does little to improve them I will let you know. The point is I will know the results. Best regards Moray James.

[moray james]

You guys ae turning this into rocket science and it's not. If you take the Heresy as an example it is roughly a square box for arguement sake lets just call it square. If you take some simple one inch square strapping and install it so it extends from the middle of one sidr to the middle of the other side you will have broken up the first and largest resonant mode of those two panels and in all likelyhood pushed them up in frequency by about double or more. You don't have to measure anything to know that this is a good and worth while result of your effort. Tie all the panels together and you get even more improvement. It is not difficult. As I said before a shift of ten percent in cabinet volume is not a big deal. If you want you can go on line and use a free box response simulation program and see for yourself. Companies have to meet price points and they have to have predetermined profit margins to stay alive. They just cannot throw a few extra dollars at products. If you were to look and see what was actually required to impliment the changes which only seem to cost a few extra dollars you would find that you can't scratch your back for a few extra dollars. This is where/when DIY becomes a wonderful thing. Best regards Moray James.

[AJR]

Maybe it is interesting to replace the yellow caps's (Hi and Mid) by Mundorf silver-oil caps, for a start< Maybe I will open the Heresy's this weekend only for looking to the value of the yellow cap's. It is I think not a difficult way to repace them by equal values, but first measure the value's.

Regards,

AJR

[cfelliot]

I own HIIIs. Although I have no interest in modifying the crossovers, I'd still like to see a schematic of the crossover to compare to other Heresy designs.If anyone ever gets or traces it out a post would be much appreciated.

[StephenM]

If the Op reads and asks questions and follows his ear there is no reason that he cannot end up with a fine sounding set of speakers and quite possibly a better set than what he started with.

A. The OP already has a pair of fine sounding speakers. He has expressed no dissatisfaction with the sound, only that the internal parts do not appear to be fancy.

B. How much money should he sink to "possibly" get a better set than what he started with?

I don't have to measure a thing to know this.

If you haven't measured, then you don't actually KNOW anything.

If I install brace work which stops or reduces my cabinet distortion and as a result of the slight cabinet volume reduction my 2 db down point shifts up lets say 5 Hz. so what?

You have no idea how much cabinet distortion there was in the first place because you never measured it. You have no idea how far your 2dB down point shifts because you didn't measure it. You don't know how changing the volume impacts other distortion because you didn't measure it.

Are you actually measuring the internal volume and the wood used for the brace work to know its only a 10% change or less, or are you just winging it?

I don't see why you seem to think that making physical changes to a cabinet is some sort of insult to Klipsch or that Klipsch are the only competitent people capable of building a box.

I don't think the engineers at Klipsch are the only folks capable of designing a speaker. But there is no doubt in my mind that they have far greater resources at their disposal than you or I do for designing and actually testing their work.

[StephenM]

If you want you can go on line and use a free box response simulation program and see for yourself.

Surprisingly, simulations and reality do on occasion differ...

They just cannot throw a few extra dollars at products.

Come on, we're not talking about Insignia speakers here. If the engineers at Klipsch felt the Heresy could have significantly benefited from bracing, they'd be braced, and they could tack on an extra $50 a pair. They'd still be a bargain compared to the next expensive Heritage product.

[moray james]

If you think that the stock capacitors used in the H3 are the best possible for the job that is youe opinion and you arefree to believe that. I would disagree with you about that and that too is just my opinion.

The OP can spend as much or as little as he wants on his project the speakers are his to do with as he pleases.

I know the results of my work I don't have to measure anything to know what I hear and to determine the benefit or not of what I have done. If you believe thay only measurement can supply the answers you are welcome to your belief. I did have some sota measurement equipment at one time and you can find yourself being lead down the measurement path if you are not caredul. Measurements do not tell the whole story.I am not saying that there is no need to measure things only that you don't have to rely upon then for everything. So we disagree ok? You or I can hear an tell a lot of things that can't be measured or which are very difficult to measure. I know that the work that I did on the Quartet speakers dor example is a significant improvement over what I started with stock. You can believe that or not and that is fine with me.

You have put yourself in the position of defending a empty box with zero brace or stiffening work and you seem to be expecting me to believe that this is a mechanically sound engineering design. The Heresy has the minimum material required to make a six sided box that's it. Like I said before if that works for you fine but I don't see anything to get excited about. The Heresy is the largest possible size it can be and allow you to make two of them from one sheet of ply or mdf. Google is a great resource. This forum is a great resource. Can we simply agree to diagree here? Please don't tell me that if I don't measure I have no idea of what I am hearing. Some things you need to measure some less so some it's just a waste of time. I happen to like Klipsch and I have a lot of respect and admitation for the company and I like this forum, this is not an attack on Klipsch. Best regards Moray James.

[moray james]

Thank you for your comments and thoughts regarding this matter. I believe that you will find that box response programs can and do provide reasonable accuracy more than enough to show you within reason what a ten percent shift in box volume will do to the low end response of a loudspeaker in a given cabinet. If you don't believe me and you don't want to check on line you can look to engineering text books thirty fourty years or more old to find confirmation that this kind of volume shift will have minimal impact.

Klipsch engineers don't run the company. You can defend hollow boxes all you want and you can like them all you want. I simply want something a little bit better than that for myself. Best regards Moray James.

[StephenM]

Measurements do not tell the whole story.

They may not tell the whole story, but they do tell quite a bit. They're also considerably more accurate and less biased than human ears.

you seem to be expecting me to believe that this is a mechanically sound engineering design.

It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not. The Heresy is a decades old speaker that remains fairly popular to this day. That alone is a testament to the quality of sound it produces and correspondingly, the engineering behind the speaker itself.

Can we simply agree to diagree here?

Not a problem. Looks like the OP is setting upon his quest one way or another.

[StephenM]

Klipsch engineers don't run the company.

So back when the Heresy was designed, an engineer didn't run the company? Right...

[moray james]

It is the human ear which should make the final design decission not the measurement device.

Hollow square (ish) boxes make bad speaker cabinets. To say otherwise is wrong. The engineering of PWK was in the horns and crossover and how he made them work together. There is no cigar for designing a hollow box so can we just drop that one? A reasonable box volume was chosen based upon cost and ease of manufacture and it did a reasonable job then and it still does today. Roughly double that volume and you have a Forte.

Best regards Moray James.

[moray james]

Paul had to wear all the hats at one time and engineering did not dictate even then. Today you can be sure that the engineers don't run the company. We are takling about the H3 here. As I see it the basic decisions Paul made were good ones and they have survived him. They work for the company and they work for you as a consumer. They don't work so well for me and a hollow plywood or mdf box will never fit my expectation of a quality speaker cabinet. So I will continue to diy and upgrade the hollow box into something just a little bit better. That works for me. Best regards Moray James.