Game Over! Facts on direct vs. dipoles for newbies (or those new to multichannel)

[t-man]

Hey guys! Love the discussion. This may not help, but at least it adds to the mix. I personally have a 5.1 system using all monopoles. My rear channel speakers are in the the rear corners toed into the listening position about 7 feet high. The listening position is about 2/3 back into the room. I believe this is a good compromise to running 6.1 or 7.1. Depending on the mix, I get rear center effects when called for, as well as good localized stereo effects.

My dad has a Klipsch reference 5.1 set-up with the WDST positioned to dolby spec, 6-7 feet high, and slightly behind listening position on side walls. Alhtough it sounds fine for movies, it really suffers with music. It also sounds like it needs a rear center. In all, I prefer my 5.1 monopole set up in the rear corners. It's all about compromises when you are on a space and $ budget. This compromise works well for me.

If you want to reproduce a theater sound, go with WDST speakers, but why would you want to do this? A theater is designed for a large room of people, compromising an optimal listening position. In our homes, we don't have to compromise, so just aim your speakers at the listening position. Seems to work for me. I prefer my setup over my dads for both HT and (definitely) music.

T-man

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KG 5.5 (mains)

KLF-C7 (center)

KG 1 (rears)

SVS 20-39CS+ (sub)

Aura Bass Shakers (pair)

Kenwood amp for sub and shakers

Denon AVR 681/1601

[HornEd]

Thanks, T-man, this thread needed an objective view point of two similar Klipsch systems with the primary difference in the WDST or direct reflecting surrounds.

Since my HT system is somewhat non-standard by having a KLF-30 custom center, dual KLF-C7 Front Effects, and a seven foot custom SVS Dual Ultra Sub Tower to support the KLF-30's as Mains, Surrounds, and Rear Effects... plus a lot of time, effort and tweaking went into the set-up... it, perhaps, does not match the "average" five monopole speaker configuration.

Your examples are a great testimony to picking out an outstanding Klipsch rig at a local authorized dealer. Your point about getting above the "theater sound" is one that the THX folks don't quite understand... but I sure do! Also, there is so much music in movies... I prefer not to have my music folded, spindled and mutilated by dipoles in the name of theater ambience. At least, thank you Klipsch, WDST is a step up from that since only the sounds above about 2,000Hz are sprayed around the room... and in phase!

Also, your point about how important it is to carefully position your monopoles to take advantage of the acoustics native to your listening environment cannot be over emphasized. The critical aspect is being sure that the horn tweeters are aimed at covering most of your sweetspot... and let the audio reflections create the ambience naturally.

And as sound mixers take more advantage to be creative with the prevalent five full-range discrete channels (plus LFE), your monopole rig is likely to sound even better!

I'm glad that you and quite a few others have enjoyed this thread. Sometimes short-sided concepts like "localize the front array but dump the ambience in the rear channels"... get quasi-legitimized in the public mind by all the embellished advertising. After all, look what it did for the Bose bottom line.

The more your kind of comments surface... the less we are likely to suffer from the Dark Side of THX. Now, in fairness some industry standardization urged by LucasFilms, Inc. in its THX standards have helped the broad consumer base. The world would be a better place if we consumers make George Lucas understand that we want to be set free from the "dipole manacles" and be allowed to have better than theater sound in our living rooms, dens and dedicated HT facilities.

May the Force continue to be with your monopole surrounds! -HornED

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Photo update soon! -HornEd

[Q-Man]

I have to add in my two cents, since my name dropping friend Horn Ed mentioned my surround set-up. I never would have thought that I would end up with more speakers in the rear then I have in the front, and the front has five counting the front effects. First of all, everything is a compromise. There is no perfect room and no perfect system in any room. On our quest for perfection we all take different approaches, form our own opinions and sometimes share the results. This board is a great place for that. I've gained a lot of knowledge and insite from this board. I wouldn't have the system that I do now if it wasn't for all the members here.

If I had a small room I might use dipoles, bipoles, or WDST speakers coupled with a subwoofer for the surrounds. I might even be content doing so. WDST speakers have their place and purpose, just not in my place. Then again I'm not the kind of person who will ever be content with my system or with anything that I have or do. I'm one who spends more time tweaking then listening. I can't help it, I'm always trying to build a better mouse trap.

Over the years I used about six different speakers for the surrounds. This made me a firm believer in full range direct radiating speakers for my room. For more envelopment, just add more of them.

Crash,

I'm thinking of the paragraph where you mentioned Horn Ed's Brute Force Approach. Well, I must agree with Horn Ed's school of thought.

I would say, no, it doesn't have to be Klipsch speakers, but yes they all have to be the same. Whether it be 5.1, 6.1,7.1, or more.

No, don't wire all the surround speakers in parallel, like you said. Use a "Y" connector from the pre-outs to split the signal and feed it to seperate amps. Then you can run as many as you want or need, and even set them at different volume levels.

Don't place the four subs in each corner, that's where the Klipschorns go. Stack your subs instead. That will help eliminate those low frequency standing waves. This should improve the low bass reproduction. I got that from Mr. Toole, and I think someone elce did too.

It can't get much better then having a near exact timbre match. My LaScala center channel speaker made a big improvement. But now I'm hankering for a Klipschorn behind a screen. See what I mean by never being satisfied.

Now, if I didn't use Klipschorns & LaScalas I would have to spend big money for mega power amps and speakers that could handle all that power. We would be talking 800 to 1000 watts per channel and 10 channels of them. Even by doing this I wouldn't achieve the dynamics and low distorion level af a fully horn loaded speaker. I've always felt that Klipschorns save you a lot of money by being so efficient.

I'm getting side tracked here, let me get back to the surrounds. Picture that little Bose cube. The one that has two or three tiny speakers stacked on top of each other. They also rotate in different directions to achieve 135 degree to 180 degree dispersion. Now feed them some steroids. With that in mind, push a Klipschorn into the corner or false corner. Then throw a LaScala on top of it, making sure that it lands upside down and aimed in another direction. If your room needs more coverage you can always place another LaScala upside down on a stand along the side or back wall or a Klipschorn in another false corner or niche. It would depend on where you need to fill a void. Now you have your full range direct radiating WDST type speaker that matches your mains and center. Tell me that's not getting closer to that content feeling. Darn, now the rear center channel has just been introduced and I only have one speaker left. Will I end up making another Heritage cube? Only time will tell.

Now who cares that DVD Audio players lack a bass management system, and sends a full range signal to every channel. We all have these full range speakers , right? Then again , why not try Outlaws ICBM bass manager and experiment with the different crossover settings. It was something I never thought that I needed, but I'm glad I tried one.

Keep experimenting, it keeps the juices flowing. For those of you with only one pair of direct radiating speakers being used for surrounds, try this. Face them into the rear corner for more ambience & envelopment for Video. When you listen to CD's or DVD audio, turn them around. You might be surprised.

The point is, don't be afraid to try something new and different. If everyone did everything alike even this hobby, passion , or obsession would be boring.

By no means am I saying Horn Ed's or my approach is the only way to go. Horn ED & I have been exchanging ideas on the ultimate all Klipschorn based home theater room. So we do have a certain comradely going on. Just as we all exchange ideas on this forum and form our own opinions.

I admit that I'm a bass horn junkie. I can't refuse a good deal on a pair when I see some for sale. I also enjoy building some of the Vintage bass horns to see what they sound like. Once you accumulate a number of these speakers you tend to find ways to incorporate them into your system.

I could go on, your lucky I don't know how to type.

Q.

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Q-Man

This message has been edited by Q-Man on 05-25-2002 at 08:52 AM

[Roadhawg]

This has been an enjoyable thread, if somewhat testy at times. Thought I'd weigh in with my 2 cents. Audio is certainly one of the most subjective hobbies around in my opinion. Perceived audio quality is affected by everything from choice of equipment, source material, room acoustics, even temperature and humidity.

Add to this each of our own personal preferences and the differences in each unique set of ears and it's no wonder different people passionate about the same subject disagree.

I have set up systems for friends using RS7s for surrounds because of what their preferences and priorities were. My personal preference is 7 monopole speakers, Heritage based. I listen more critically than almost all of my friends do. Most do not notice audio problems that make me nuts. Most people probably enjoy listening more than I do because I am constantly listening for problems and thinking of what I can improve. When I have friends over their collective jaws drop and I'm still thinking something is not quite right. My wife just shakes her head.

It seems to me that many are attempting to recreate the movie theater experience. I am in movie theaters every week, most THX approved and in my opinion the sound stinks in almost all of them. I am not trying to recreate that sound at home-I am trying to greatly improve it! I agree that theaters make compromises in sound because of the many less than ideal seats available. I have installed sound systems in churches and grudgingly had to make the same compromises.

I used to be in a band using LaScalas for PA cabinets and everytime we set up, we had to make compromises. I believe that dipoles and Klipsch's wide dispersion technology are compromises. Not necessarily bad, but compromises in the sense that they are less than ideal.

I further believe that when Home Theater was in its infancy the audible differences between dipoles and monopoles was not even noticeable to most people due to the source material available. In 1998 I attended AES in San Francisco with some friends to help select a recording console that would cost in excess of $100,000. Most of the recording engineers I spoke to back then said privately that they had absolutely no idea of what to do with 5.1 channels. At that time, the perceived use of the rear channels by the people who were mixxing the audio was strictly for ambience and the occasional gee whiz sound effect.

Obviously, more and more audio engineers have now figured out what they can do with 5, 6 and even 7 channels. Recording is an art, and it is maturing. It is dramatically better now than 4 years ago. It will be dramatically better in 4 years than it is now. This is the best reason in my opinion to go with full range monopoles... more and more information is being fed into the rear channels and even more information will be put there in the future. There are still quite a few horrible soundtracks out there, but they are getting better and better all the time.

I believe the better the source material, the greater the disparity between dipoles or wide dispersion speakers and monopoles, at least to my ears. Others may disagree-doesn't make either of us right or wrong, just different!

[HornEd]

Whew, Q-Man and Roadhawg, I'm glad you showed up! Obviously, there are some who believe if it says so in the sales oriented literature it MUST be true. Like you guys, I have been instrumental in encouraging people to buy Klipsch... and they have.

Q-Man, I "drop" your name because you are my hero... you have the mental and physical resources to do whatever it takes to tweak Klipsch Heritage to a level that would make PWK proud... and then some! Here's a shot of Q-Man's front array...

Now that is a view that is "awesome" worthy!

Roadhawg, your comments were particularly welcome since I believe the sound mixers will raise to the level of their potential... and not be shunted aside by LucasFilms, LTD and their transient (IMHO) "THX Approved" standards... "standards" that have a Lucas Films price tag attached.

Add the T-man experience of similar direct radiating and WDST Klipsch 5.1 systems and the direct radiating Klipsch experience doesn't seem nearly as bleak and futile as some would have us believe.

Helping newbies and others living in the THX hype to see that there is more than one path to great sound! -HornED

[avman]

hey-Q-man's gone to 'ludicrous speed'!!

(spaceballs-the movie) KILLER system!! avman.

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1-pair klf 30's

c-7 center

ksps-6 surrounds

RSW-15

sony strda-777ES receiver upgraded to v.2.02 including virtual matrix 6.1

sony playstation 2

sony dvpnc 650-v 5-disc dvd/cd/SACD changer

dishnetwork model 6000 HD sat rcvr w/digital off-air tuner

sony kv36xbr450 high-definition 4:3 tv

sharp xv-z1u lcd projector w/84" 4:3 sharp screen

Bello'international Italian-made a/v furniture

panamax max dbs+5 surge protector/power conditioner

monster cable and nxg interconnects/12 gua.speaker wire

Natuzzi red leather furniture set

KLIPSCH-So Good It Hz!

[anarchist]

Q-Man,

That photograph is simply unreal and speaks volumes about obsession. Jesus. I am stunned.

That said, I believe a few in the direct radiating crowd are missing the point:

I have stated from the very beginning there are no absolutes. As a rule of thumb, 5 direct radiators do NOT by any stretch of the imagination nor any rule of physics and/or acoustics offer the same degree of ambience or increased sweet spot as a speaker designed to do that. I have also stated if you employing 7 or more speakers, direct radiators are the way to go.

Misleading arguments about tone and timbre deprivation, less than full range, etc. do not change this. Many are cutting out the bottom 80hz of their full-range speakers making them no more effective than satellite monitors. It is ridiculous to assert you are running full-range when you are not - in fact, with that Yamaha you are cutting them out at 90hz.

Everyone here who is using direct-radiators only is using more speakers to compensate for their lack of dispersion. Q-Man has a verifiable museum of Klipsch speakers, HornEd has KLF30s all over the place and utilizes additional effects channels to get the ambience, etc. The one person (t-man) who has chimed in with a 5 channel system is using his surrounds closer to the rear so as to optimize the limitations of not having dispersion surrounds. There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing any of this and it certainly is preferable if you want to listen to music.

The bottom line is 'newbies' aren't buying a dozen speakers or turning their house into a Klipsch museum, yet. They come in, ask a question about an entry level system, and that could be 5.1 or 6.1. Direct radiators are not optimal in this configuration for Home Theater. Now someone may be satisfied if they, as Q-Man mentioned, face their direct radiators into a corner just to get the ambience and turn them back around for music. They may be satisifed if they follow t-mans lead. (Both of which are also compromises) Or they could simply get a specifically engineered speaker for wide dispersion, admittedly a compromise solution AND quite necessary given the condition of the industry, which satisifies their needs for movies and music - and does not require an additional 3, 4, and 5 speakers.

Trying to force direct radiators as the only solution or always the best solution ignores reality. For the hundredth time, there are no absolutes.

PS. Q-Man, you are, without a doubt, THE man. I have never even imagined such a monumental and 'over-the-top' HT display. I always said 'excess is best', you actually practice it. I need to get back to Fl. to see the parents and visit new friends.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[HornEd]

Yeah, Avman... and you should see his rear! Now you know why Q-Man is my Heritage Hero!

One area that was not adequately discussed on this thread was the assertion that monopole surrounds have a 30° angle of coverage. While that might apply to some woofers, WDST only uses its 180° approach for sounds over 2000-2100Hz... definitely above the woofer range.

Most Klipsch midrange horns disperse at a 60° angle... about a third of the WDST angle but still adequate in most rooms... with very careful placement. Horn tweeters are often limited to a 40° dispersion and present the greatest over 7,000Hz challenge.

So, the shape and size of the desired sweetspot has to be balanced with a bit longer distance to the side/surrounds... and you tend to get the best of both worlds... IMHO.

That's why a little angling of the monopole surrounds can sometimes make a huge difference... as in the case of Boa's Corns and the experiences of many, many others. -HornED

PS: Crash, I was writing this post when your post popped up. The tenor of my posts since day one has spoken of their being no absolutes... but there are some fairly strong examples that identical direct radiators come closest.

Perhaps the place where we least agree is that I consider WDST a compromise of sound quality and you seem to consider it a Hallmark for THX offerings. Of course, a real THX MAN would probably not accept anything less than dipole "fuzz you to equality" speakers.

Finding one's own path to ambience is not only a personal thing... but one that can change with time and experience. To condemn a newbie to the wide dispersion compromise is to sell newbies short. I have received stacks of email from sharp eared newbies that traded in their wide-dispersion wonders for crisp and clearer rear channel performance... with all the ambience their ears desire.

And, then there are those like Avman with whom I have exchanged emails that are better served by the KSP-S6 solution used as a wide-dispersion direct radiator to the sweetspot and as an off-the-rear-wall phantom center created by the rear firing wide-dispersion monopoles.

It seems to me that the more dispersion you have in a room, the less crisp your HT presentation seems to be... and the more loss there is in tone & timbre matching benefits. Making a system sound more even in ambience by eroding tone & timbre personalities of expensive speakers does not look like a good route to audio happiness... IMHO. Ambience in moderation is fine... overly ambient conditions do not make good audio... again, IMHO.

As mentioned in this thread by Roadhawg{/B], his inside communication with mixing pros and their art indicates that the improved techniques over the last four years are going to improve far more in the nest four years... and that bodes well for those of us who choose to live our audio experiences beyond the compromised emulation of less-than-HT-worthy commercial theater standards.

But, if the bipole, dipole, tripole or WDST fits... by all means... put it on! -H.E.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2002 at 11:48 AM

[Q-Man]

I will have to add more later, because I don't have the time now. I want to say one thing before I sign off.

Before I added the Outlaw ICBM and McIntosh six channel power amp I ran all channels at full range, except the center. That was set at at 90Hz as you said. The Yamaha lets you send the LFE channel and any channel set to small {90Hz} to the mains and subwoofer, this way your mains can reproduce some of the other channels low frequencys. That's how I had it set up. The subwoofer was set at about 40Hz to blend in with the Klipschorns.

Now the Yamaha is set with all the channels to full range. The Yamaha powers one pair of rear surrounds and the front effect channels. The pre-outs for the mains, front and rear center, and the second pair of surrounds now go to the Outlaw ICBM and on to the Mcintosh power amp. The ICBM is set at 40HZ for the mains, 80Hz front center, 60 Hz LaScala surrounds,40Hz for the rear center which for now is the University Classic. The one that I built, and can be seen under Odds Mods. The surrounds that the Yamaha is powering are Jensen Imperials that are loaded with Klipschorn drivers and network. They are full range because they go a little deeper then the Klipschorns.

The ICBM also lets you send any channel you use a crossover frequency on, to be sent to the mains then to the subwoofer. So again, I only need to have the subwoofer set to about 40Hz and let the bass horns reproduce everything from the selected speakers below their crossover setting.

That's all for now.

Q.

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Q-Man

This message has been edited by Q-Man on 05-25-2002 at 01:47 PM

[HornEd]

Well said, Q-Man... preserving all the bass of fully loaded horns is a most worthy goal... and, as you know, I expect to do the same in my new K-Horn based room.

I do not have as much regard for cone-based direct radiators and prefer to let the 7' SVS Ultras Tower fill it in with better quality bass IMHO. The fallacy that limiting full-range speakers to their best performance range creates diminished quality merits a flash of Mr. Paul's yellow button! Most full-range speakers sound better when they don't have the first 60 or 80Hz to deal with... their speed of attack and accuracy improves directly.

Of course, if one has less than adequate "subwoofage" than a lesser course must be chosen. Still it holds that to replace lesser quality bass with better quality bass helps, not hinders, the overall rig performance! Saying that the sound character of a big cubic inch floorstander would become equal to a much smaller satellite monitor is far beyond any "reality" I have encountered. -HornED

PS: Crash, the world is a jumble of mostly workable illusions... and reality is but what we accept until we know better. That's certainly what happened to much of the "reality" I was taught in graduate school decades ago. And I think you will find that it happens to some of your "reality" proofs over the next four years in Roadhawg's experience-based vision.

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2002 at 01:12 PM

[anarchist]

Q-Man,

Another excellent post which will have you at odds with the subwoofer contingent; most of whom believe allowing full-range speakers to cover ALL the bass they were designed to provide is a huge mistake. If you utilize good-crossover management, I believe this to be the best approach. I, of course, prove this as I use powered towers which many condemn. They sound great in my room so I do not pay attention to the naysayers; that said, I would prefer to cross them around 40 and drop in a SVS to cover to the 16-40 range.

I guess I completely disagree with HornEd on this matter and find no purpose whatsoever in buying KLF30's to run as monitors. They were designed to run to 36hz - stating you like running them where they aren't compromised is misguided. Basic speaker design will tell you the optimal sound is provided using separate enclosures for each component. You have already compromised. Large cubic inches mean SQUAT when all you are using them for are a tweeter and a mid-range. Subwoofers should be playing the lowest frequencies and woofers should be playing bass. Cheap car speakers can play quite a bit lower than 80hz.

To make another point clearer because it seems to get lost in the text from here to there. I have repeatedly stated WDST is a compromise - one intended to provide the best perfomance for BOTH music and movies. Otherwise, you would need one set of surrounds for movies (dipoles) and another set for music (direct radiators) if you wanted optimal performance in both. Further, I prefer the KSP S6 myself - note the sig - and chose it specifically because I did not like the WDST (aesthetics). To infer I consider it a hallmark is easily the largest 'reach' since Gore believed the Supreme Court would make him President.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[HornEd]

Once again, friend Crash we seem to have lost the thread of how three-way KLF-30's work. The dual 12" woofers on "SMALL" have a tapered rolloff that begins between 80Hz and 90Hz... and crossover to the mid-range horns at 825Hz... leaving a very necessary and stimulating range of more accurate and detailed sound provided by the dual woofers... the stuff of speaker character, IMHO!

Additionally, most cone woofers have a frequency area where the high bass meets the low mid-range that is less than ideal. As I understand it, the Tom Holman (whose initials plus an "X" for experiment is how THX got its name) favors an 80Hz bass cutoff to avoid full-range speaker anomalies in that area... shifting the under 80Hz duties to a subwoofer.

Personally, I much prefer listening to my KHorns putting out fully horn loaded bass at 40Hz than my full-range KLF-30's. In fact I rather listen to my SVS Ultras putting out 40Hz than my full-range KLF-30's. I especially would not like to listen to my KLF-30's with the full woofer range (36Hz-825Hz) missing.

I mean saying that missing the 36Hz - 86Hz range (which is replaced by the subs) is tantamount to also missing the 87Hz - 825Hz range that is replaced by nothing just isn't a reasonable statement to my aging mind. "I get my facts from sales tracts" Keith seems to have the same misconception.

So I use a couple of keen subwoofers to handle from 16Hz to 90Hz with better than commercial movie house SPL standards... am I to think that if I set them to roll off at 36Hz that I will be getting more value for the money I paid for the subs and a 1000 watt amp to push them.

I'll agree that I don't want to lose the clarity and precision of my KHorns... but I don't have a problem replacing 36Hz - 86Hz in my KLF-30's... and still enjoy a much better ride from 87Hz - 825Hz that is left before the mid-range crossover kicks in. I am sure that the engineers who designed the KLF-30 did not anticipate someone using them with as accurate and powerful a subwoofer set as I have. Unfortunately, they no longer work for Klipsch and no one I talked to there could remember their names.

BTW, I am glad to hear that your THX allegiance is short of the "Gore Stretch", I get more excited about your prospects every day. I was also moved by your assessment that multi-directional speakers are a compromise. I just don't buy your assertion of what's best any more than I buy the engineering warp factor in THX dictates... and you don't buy mine... so... that should be okay for both of us.

It's too bad that more people didn't buy the powered tower KSP line and it didn't pay Klipsch to continue it... I finally got to hear some while visiting a friend of a friend... they even had KSP-S6's set up like Avman and I thought they did quite well by the program material. Still, I don't think I would trade them for my obsolete Legends HT... or my Vintage Heritage music system. But, I have a better mental picture of why so many have enjoyed KSP systems so much. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2002 at 02:53 PM

[anarchist]

Ed,

I have never owned anything that was THX certified so I don't think I can even be thought of as having ANY allegience to THX. That was an erroneous assumption on your part and used to belittle my incredible sense of wit, logic, and understanding of all things audio.

I am glad you had a chance to listen to a KSP setup. Perhaps if you heard one in an optimal environment or one set up as well as Keith's, you would trade in that old mountain-man Legend setup.

Regarding the bass issue, since you are only concerned with your towers providing above 90hz, you could get rid of all those legends and just replace them with RC-7's or RC-3's all around. The 7's go down to 45hz and the 3's go down to 62hz; both of which are lower than your current cross-over. If size concerns you, just get the 7's. If you just need more horn, put Heresies around the room and dump the Legends. No need for speakers that go down to 36hz when you won't use it. Its analogous to buying a SUV so you can park it on grass at home.

In the end, all that matters, is the joy our individual theaters bring to our own lives.

PS. If Klipsch or a dealer somewhere has a few more KSP400's lying around in a basement or storage closet, I would be glad to take them. I need 4 more to convert over to an all direct-radiator system and be HornEd compliant.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

This message has been edited by crash827 on 05-25-2002 at 03:54 PM

[HornEd]

What an interesting twist, Crash<'B>... you who used the "We are the Borg, you will be assimilated" toward me for resisting the THX dictates and now you put yourself outside THX parameters. Well that's another point for you in my book! Oops, I just noticed your humble admission of having "incredible sense of wit, logic and understanding of all things audio." How ever could I have missed such modesty... must have been the lack of a smiley.

Since KSP were discarded before Legends... my guess is that Klipsch thought more of Legends. When I bought the Legends, KSP was an awkward marketing miss and RF-7's were just a wispy rumor. Fortunately, the Legends perform where I wanted them to perform to bring joy to my 94 year-old mothers diminished capacity. And they have done that remarkably well... and likely better than your alternative suggestions. The key to understanding your failure to understand the situation seems to be a lack of experience with the character of Klipsch product lines beyond KSP. Although you do pay lip service to the Heritage line... and that is a start.

If your comment "In the end, all that matters, is the joy our individual theaters bring to our own lives." is an honest comment, why do you try so hard to belittle what my 6.1 Legends have done in my mother's life and what my 6.1 Heritages have done in mine. I don't recall saying that your KSP system should be dumped if that's what floats your boat. But, then again, maybe you need to turn in your direct-radiators for the direct-agitators that seem, at times, to fit your posting style.

Well, if you will excuse me, I must do a little re-reading so that I too can recognize the "incredible sense of wit, logic and understanding of all things audio." that I missed on reading your posts the first time. -HornED

This message has been edited by HornEd on 05-25-2002 at 05:41 PM

[anarchist]

HornED,

BWAHAHAHA. Just a little redirected sarcasm and a few little jabs, buddy. Don't get your horns in a twist. I understand your audio experiments are largely to benefit your mother. I commend you on the depth of care and concern you provide her. It is remarkable.

The smilies were deliberately left off just to see if you took it seriously or realized I was baiting you. You took the bait so maybe my subtlety doesn't come across well. I will always include smilies when being sarcastic or baiting you so you realize my intent.

I have no problems with your Legend setup. Legends were/are great speakers and frankly I was gonna purchase a pair of those long before I though of purchasing the KSP's. Maybe because they fit my sense of Klipsch; my having owned KG4's since the 80's.

And if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is. How many 'direct-agitators' have been included in your posts directed at Keith? There's one just a few posts up if it helps your memory. Oh, yeah, and what about the ones directed towards clueless? And how many times have you baited me? Frankly, I think a little satire and friendly barbs traded in posts make them a bit more interesting - otherwise, we may as well read whitepapers all the time.

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Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[HornEd]

Wow, how about that... I have been had for fanciful grins instead of for fancied sins... and it all looked the same to me. It's a good thing I elected to stay off the road until I felt a little quicker.

Since you admit I rose to the provocation (e.g., bait) than my "direct-agitator" comment was not so far off the mark... and you may also attach a smilie to it.

It so happens that cluless was a fun thing based on earlier comments about not liking organs... and as far as I know we shared the whole episode as a fun excursion.

As for TalkToKeith that was not a fun thing based on earlier comments that I took as rude, crude and unattractive... as well as being totally unwarranted. And when I tried to make have him understand that there was no intentional foul, he continued in a rather mindless way to be an inaccurate bother. He helped me when I first came on this board and, therefore, I once had a high opinion of him. If he stops asking for it... I will be more than happy to do something else with my time.

I try to get along... and give people as much leeway as I can. But, being a doormat has never been my style. And, leaving a thread with a questionable reply to a newbie that was copied off a sales oriented web site couched as though it was a direct answer from an authority is not may idea of fair play.

And I must admit, on days when living is a marginal bet, I am not in my best humor. I need to take some of the LOL pills that juices Justin for all those happy posts.

Well, as a concession to safety, I've elected to postpone my trip until the wee hours. The motorhome's all stocked up and ready to head for a wine-tasting / photo shoot at a private club with a gourmet chef in the Santa Cruz Mountains. I missed the big dance tonight... but I can still crank up the Legends, put on a DVD and imagine some fuzzy ambience to relax my heart by... -HornED

PS: Gee, Crash, thanks for the friendly post and don't forget to remember a Vet this weekend.

[anarchist]

HornED,

You have yourself a good weekend and enjoy the holiday. We are having a BBQ this weekend and having a few Vets over to the house - where I shall promptly blow them away with my HT; even if they are ambienced to no end.

FWIW, this board provides a nice distraction from the normal goings-on of daily life. It was a huge benefit when I was deathly ill and is now as well with some problems on the farm. New foal on the ground - wasn't the simplest birth (in fact, the details are downright unbelievable) and now the colt has gone into critical status and requires round the clock care.

In fact, I am now leaving to get to the emergency clinic to pick up more supplies. Never let anyone convince you owning horses is an easy endeavor. I should slap the man who got me into this little business...but he is a friend AND a Vet so I'll let it slide.

Happy Memorial Day holiday to all should I be remiss in my posting functions.

------------------

Home Theater

KSP 400's

KSP C6

KSP S6's

Yamaha RXV995 (Current)

Bryston 9BST (On the horizon)

Bryston SP1.7 (A little further on the horizon)

Music Room

Heresy's

KG4's

KSW200

Ella PP EL-34 (Coming soon)

[HornEd]

Good morning, Crash, it's the wee hours in San Francisco and time to determine what condition my condition is in. What a pleasure it is to have a reply to your post that conjures up pleasant memories of Kentucky and horses.

Your "foal on the ground" reminds me of some friends in Denton, Texas, who moved there from the Northeast because of the favorable soil conditions for raising horses. Their horse farm, replete with broad acres of lush grass pastures cross-fenced with white picket fences. The husband is a college professor and scion of a New England soft drink fortune. He and I were involved in a project with Stanley Marcus who had dedicated his theatrical clothing collection to the local university.

Raising horses is the wife's passion and she has one of the largest foaling barns I have ever encountered... it even includes a second story barnmaster's apartment with a video array to be able to watch the progress of mares in every stall in the barn. In the antebellum style main house, off the master bedroom is another even more elaborate video studio.

Although she is the daughter of the CEO of one of the Fortune Five Hundred, you would never know it when it's foaling time... she's as hands on as it comes... and probably gets less sleep than any of her hands as she hops between bed and a dozen closed circuit video displays that can provide several views (with sound) of each birthing stall.

I have recalled other Kentucky related stories of the grammar school girl friend of Casius Clay/Mohammed Ali in the less prosperous quarter of Louisville... of Louie Dampier (Adolph Rupp's favorite pure shooter and first 3 point shot leader in the ABA/NBA with over 15k combined points in both leagues)... and the dark side of my family tree who was head of research at Brown & Williamson who suppressed info on the links between cancer and smoking.

I have a niece in Oregon that is head wrangler and dressage maven at a Christian Equestrian College... she also tours the U.S. evaluating dressage programs seeking credentials. Her mom, my sister, and her husband have an elk farm in Idaho and a string of horses that are teamed to pull various hand-built parade buggies, wagons and sleds. So, except for the boxer, basketball and tobacco memories... there are several links to my understanding the action that surrounds a "foal on the ground... with complications" from a first hand experience. I trust you will let us know the outcome.

Since this is the HT Forum and not the General one, I should probably run off what audio systems each one has... but this post is long enough already... and I have to get ready to hit the road. Suffice to say that there is more than one Klipsch rig in the group that I have been able to influence... and even one with a WDST beginning!

Having a Vet's BBQ on Memorial Day weekend is a wonderful thing to do, Crash. I just put on a Vintage Flying Museum tee shirt that I helped create. The museum is an all volunteer, non-profit, organization that restores vintage aircraft to full flying status on a nine-acre tract adjacent to the Fort Worth (TX) International Airport. The museum co-developed a program with the FAA to encourage socio-economically disadvantaged school kids to enter aviation careers. Many kids got their first ride in a tethered hot air balloon or a WWII "taildragger" at the museum.

The museum has won widespread recognition for its preservation of WWII and Korean Conflict aircraft and for its video history of ordinary vets telling-it-like-it-was when defending American values was a daily life-or-death experience. Anyone traveling near Fort Worth on a weekend ought to look them up... and towards the Fall, there is an annual Hangar Dance that looks straight out of the "Memphis Belle" flick... authentic flying B-17 as a band backdrop and all. The dance is held in a former WWII B-29 hangar that was disassemble in Oklahoma and reassembled in Fort Worth.

Happy Memorial Day to vet, "Doc" Hospers and his wife, "Chuckie", for whom the last flying B-17 Pathfinder was named. Actually, it was not so much an honor as a WAF consideration when Doc (a top orthopedic surgeon, former Army bird colonel, motorized wheel chair and active B-17 pilot, and staunch friend of many in the "No-B.S." crowd... in the Paul W. Klipsch tradition) when he bought a B-17 without telling his "practical minded" frau. FWIW, Doc's medical prowess was a major influence on my being able to preserve this battered carcass this long. Thanks Doc.

It worked, and "Chuckie" became a driving force in building the museum... and, after much personal recognition by the FAA, was brought on board as an employee with special aviation related skills. It was my pleasure to dedicate much of several retirement years to helping the little museum blossom... in fact I spent so much time there I had an apartment in one of the hangars with a large 4:3 widescreen, Klipsch Heritage based HT that hosted lots of vets watching movies and combat footage from their war eras.

Yes, Memorial Day is special to me, and it is comforting to know that it is special to you and other Forum folk... old and young alike. The Vintage Flying Museum is a living memorial to Vets... with special recognition by the Defense Department for its proactive role in remembering vets and their exploits. In fact, the museum has been provided with official photos, film footage, vintage aircraft and other memorabilia in recognition by DOD, FAA, N.A.S.M., etc. of their pro-veteran efforts.

Nice folks, well worth visiting... and supporting... and one of the most authentic B-17 tour experiences to be found anywhere. So far, the "tour guides" are often vets who flew B-17's in WWII... but, sadly, their numbers are fading fast. Few realize it, but Tom Landry, former coach of the Dallas Cowboys, was a WWII B-17 pilot... and one of the best friends that the museum or this old Cowboys fan could ever hope to have. God bless the vets that were, the vets that are and the vets that are yet to be if America is to remain a "Bastion of Freedom." -HornED

PS: And on this Memorial Day, God bless Travis Hoover, a quietly unassuming patriot that was the number two pilot on the famous Doolittle Raid on Tokyo... so unassuming that we were friends for years before his wife told me that he was that Travis Hoover. Travis also racked up more than 70 combat missions in the European Theater in WWII.

He's one of many that is deservedly recognized in a special web Memorial Day weekend salute found at: http://www.salute.org/col__travis_hoover.htm and one of the friendliest and most considerate retired combat Bird Colonels you will ever meet.

[ShapeShifter]

From the many post and my recent experience with Klipschorns, excellent sound is very dependent on room acoustics. My opinion is that no mater how great the amplification, quality of source components and source material, nothings will compensate for the lack of the appropriate room and acoustic refinements. If the room is right or addressed; brother & sister the sound you receive is excellent. I've tried to be a complacent and compassionate member thus far, not wanting to upset my fellow brethren and sisters. But as PWK said many time, BULLSHIT!!, Yes in Caps!.

If you have the right Klipsch speakers with a musical receiver or separate components, believe you me: you don't really SPIT where their the Sub is crossed. Your components may compromise, but your speakers will NOT! If you have Heritage Speakers, designed by PWK ; He did not B$!#!#, they will perform and deliver to their specs, your components may not, but please don't blame the Honorable PWK for that. Just look at what he used for amplification! Are you using comparable HT components?

I'm out of the speaker vs. amplification vs.. HT Setup, DVD-A, SACD thing. Get a good room, speakers and Audio preferred amplification. Hey, I'v spent considerable time the last three weeks listening to James Taylor's SACD disc Hourglass, Track 3 (Little More Time With You) and Track 6 (Jump Up Behind Me) and track 11 Boatman, they will extract the best from your speakers. Your receiver, subwoofer and speakers must be up to suff. Yes, I challenge any appropriate Klipsch setup to surpass this Heritage sound. Tell you this, you will need Klipschorns fronts Belle Center and nothing short of Belle Rears to surpass the sounds. P!!@ On where the cross is set! If yours sounds bad, get a musical receiver/ separates. Ha! Get a NAD T761 for HT or a higher priced candidate. Have you listened to NAD T761? Properly adjusted, you will not need separate speaker levels for HT or 2 channel Audio listening settings. Just thought I would raise some ruckus!

I have Quartets, Heresies, RF-3's, 71 Vertical (ALK's) & 85 w/"B" Networks and K-77 Alnico K77 Cornwalls (thanks 2 Q). I've nothing against the newer Reference Line, actually glad there is an avid following, and support would not exit for my Heritage with your loyal following. Just hasn't felt a need to venture beyond the Heritage sound. I do feel there's a real need for both camps, but I'm in the Heritage Camp.

I'm willing to bring my Heritage to the table within a 200 mile radius, are You Sure You Can Raise the Heritage ROOF! The expression form the old days; Put Up or Shut UP!!

ShapeShifter

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>

This message has been edited by ShapeShifter on 05-29-2002 at 12:46 AM

[ShapeShifter]

Oh Yea,

Remember this:

Peal an Onion.... there's lots of layers....so goes the preference for sound and components!!

Love and Share the Music with another Audio Maven and Music Lover. Man...it don't get no better that that!!

......I love Music and Klipsch...embrace the diff..

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KLIPSCH IS MUSICf>

My Systems f>s>c>