Heritage Finish Quality

[hjones4841]

When did the Heritage finish quality go to crap? My 1978 and 1998 K'horns are beautiful walnut. So is my 1998 Belle. My 2003 Heresy's look great. But the Heresy IIIs that I bought a year ago and the Heresy IIIs that I bought this week look much different. Brown walnut rather than the pretty reddish walnut of years past. Also, finish looks like plastic rather that the advertised real wood. Sure hope the new K'horns don't look like that. I would really be upset paying that much for that kind of finish!

[dtel]

I don't think it has, the color could have something to do with the veneer or stain and clear their using ?

I have some Cornwall lll's in Walnut which could not look better, and the fit and grain pattern is perfect. They are brown more than red, one thing is also over the years the stain on a speaker does slightly change color as they age.

I was in Hope a little less than a year ago and nothing had changed, even most of the people building and finishing the speakers were still the same who had been there in some cases over 20 years.

I don't know the answer to your question as to why the color is different but I know the quality of workmanship has not changed, we visited every year for years now and for the most part it's still the same people even.

[WMcD]

The cut sheet for Heresy III on the main website shows that they only come in lacquer finish. So we can assume that yours are lacquer.

Lacquer (particularly if not satin and if thick) is sometimes described as "hot" meaning that it has a gloss and can be somewhat plastic looking. So I don't doubt your description.OTOH, can not agree it is "crap."

Much of the classic Klipsch Heritage could be had in lacquer but in many cases had an "oil" finish. In my view it was just mineral oil. Some oil finishes are thined down varnish. In either case, a coat of oil enhances walnut to give it depth and contrast - the term "warm" is used. More specifically, the depth thing is called http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Chatoyance.html Chatoyance means "cat's eye." French, you know.

The wiped on oil finish gives an optical effect better than built up finish in varnish or lacquer unless the . Perhaps you earlier Heritage are oiled? It would make sense. It is beautiful. No argument there.

Lacquer doesn't quite do that.and is sometimes said to give a cold effect - perhaps reddish. An undercoat of shellac can help under lacquer. You might be seeing this. So again I don't doubt you. OTOH, I can not agree it is "crap."

In my observation, when oiled Heritage do not get a renewed coating of oil every few months, the walnut looks a bit more pastel and dull, and does not have the brown, with optical depth, everyone loves. It could be that what you're seeing is the natural walnut which is not enhanced by oil. I wouldn't say red but maybe in some lighting conditions? BTW, what is wrong with red?

The use of lacquer by Klipsch might be a good thing. Again, in my observations: Unless people keep up the oil, the wood is open (literally) to water damage. A couple of times a year some good person stops by the forum saying that they have just purchased some Heritage product but it has a water stain from water run-off from a planter. A thick coating of lacquer is more protective than under-treated oil, I've seen wood with thin coatings of lacquer with water damage on furniture, though. Oak is very vulnerable because the light wood reacts to minerals and turns black. I've seen it on my second had Heritage walnut too. So this lacquer could be considered a design feature rather than a bug. I can not agree it is "crap."

It is possible that some of the color issue arises from natural variance in the walnut tree's selected for veneer over a course of years, if not decades. I will admit, though, that my several Heritage speakers have walnut which is fairly uniform in color.

In the above I've described my thoughts on why you are probably correct in objective observations -- but there are good reasons. I do object to your use of the word "crap" as descriptive of the very good wood working and finishing by Klipsch.

Smile. Be happy.

WMcD

. .

[hjones4841]

Thanks for the input, folks. Perhaps my use of "crap" was too strong and emotional. Lets just say that I am quite disappointed in the finish vs. the older speakers. Yes, the older ones are oiled walnut and yes, they have had many coats of oil on them over the years. The older K'horns were available in lacquer and they looked great. I opted for oiled on both sets and on my Belle on the recommendation of the dealer.

My biggest issue is the brown color stain that Klipsch is using now for walnut. When my wife saw the Heresy's she said "that is not walnut." In addition, the two Heresys bought a year ago have what appears to be cracks in the finish on both tops - looks like a drying out thing, which makes no sense for lacquer. Nothing has been put on top of them, by the way. Because of the cracks, I opted to put them on the wall for DSX height and put the new ones on the floor for the width channels.

Anyone who has an older set in walnut and buys a newer set thinking that the colors will match will be very disappointed. I actually think that cherry would be a better match to the older walnut. I now have three shades of walnut on my front wall. The K'horns and Belle, the walnut on the Hsu subs (Klipsch should find out how Hsu did that, by the way - beautiful!) and the brown Heresys.

Of course, all this is cosmetic and in no way impacts my enjoyment of the incredible sound of my Klipsch. I have been a huge fan since the late 1960s.

[dtel]

This is the color of my Cornwall lll's, you can see in these pic's of them being built and the clear being put on. It looks like no stain is used just clear. This is pic's from Klipsch as they were being built, they look perfect and sound really good. [Y]

http://www.cyclonecj.com/dtel/Dtelcorns-small/index.html

[hjones4841]

I think you nailed it - no stain is being used now. The color is close to "bare" walnut. Your picture 100_2064.jpg is about the color of my later Heresys. You got a good bit more wood grain than either of my 4 Heresys. Folks need to be aware of the color change, tho. If you want to color match older ones, well, you had better find some good used older ones.

As I said before, this in no way affects my love for the Klipsch sound. My first Heresys were purchased in 1972 (had to sell them to help pay for the K'horns), followed by the '78 and '98 Khorns and the '98 Belle. There was an Academy in the mix at one time - sure wish I had kept it.

Many times I have said that I will part with my K'horns only when I am put into a pine box or moved to a nursing home[]

By the way, dtel, I was born and raised in Laurel. Went to school at MS State - that is where I was introduced to Klipsch. PWK came to campus in Spring 1971 for a student IEEE program and I cut classes to spend the day with him. Truly an amazing fella!

[dtel]

By the way, dtel, I was born and raised in Laurel. Went to school at MS State - that is where I was introduced to Klipsch. PWK came to campus in Spring 1971 for a student IEEE program and I cut classes to spend the day with him. Truly an amazing fella!

Good reason to skip a class, you don't get chances like that very often, I never had the chance to meet him.

I really like the Heresy lll, we have the l and ll version only but really no room for any more speakers of any kind with 8 pair not counting a 6.1 ht.

We live in Picayune, were from Louisiana but moved the 30 miles north because land was 1/10 of the price at the time. And now that were a little older we really appreciate not being in a city or subdivision.

[hjones4841]

Here is one of my new Heresy IIIs in front of one of my 1998 K'horns. Now you see the color difference and why I, personally, am disappointed with the finish Klipsch is now using for walnut. The new ones have no feeling of woodgrain; therein is my reference to a plastic like finish.

[willland]

Here is one of my new Heresy IIIs in front of one of my 1998 K'horns. Now you see the color difference and why I, personally, am disappointed with the finish Klipsch is now using for walnut.

Keep in mind, many species of wood including American black walnut as well as cherry, age(darken) over time. The European walnuts actually lighten some with age. I am not sure of the species of walnut Klipsch uses or used then.

http://www.easttexaswoodturners.org/wood-walnut.htm

Variation:
Walnut is native to United States. The only parts of the contiguous 48 states that where Walnut does not normally grow is the southern tip of Florida, the southern tip of Texas, Costal California, and the northern portion of the central high plains. It also grows in southern Ontario, Canada. The species native to North America, American black walnut, was first known as Virginia walnut and is believed to have been planted in England in 1656.
Black walnut is among the most characteristic midwestern trees. Though an early successional, intolerant species on rich sites, it persists late enough in forest succession to be a component of many forest types. It is abundant in hedgerows and old fields, as well as river bottoms and coves. In the open, walnut has a short main stem with a broad crown. With even moderate competition, walnut forms a tall, stately tree. On poor sites, walnut will become established and persist, but will not become a canopy tree and is eventually snuffed out by competition
Larry Frye, executive director of the American Walnut Manufacturers Assn., in Zionsville, Ind., said that walnut has been a popular furniture wood around the world because of, among other things, its inherent durability. Since Colonial times it has been transformed into beautiful furniture designs and is found in many heirloom and antique pieces. Walnut is popular for architectural woodworking and decorative panels and is considered to be one of the finest cabinet woods in the United States. It is one of the few woods that improves with age, finishing beautifully and developing a rich patina as the years go by — a fact that has earned it the nickname “the aristocrat of American woods.”
Another possible reason for its nickname is its statuesque appearance. Walnut is one of the largest hardwood trees found in the United States and, of the two species of walnuts, the American black walnut grows taller than its European cousin. Another difference between the two species, Frye said, is that American black walnut will darken with age, while the European walnuts may become paler with exposure.
A related species is Juglans cinerea or butternut, a lighter colored hardwood that is sometimes stained to resemble black walnut.
Walnuts average in height between 100 to 150 feet with diameters of 4 to 6 feet. Average weight is 40 pounds per cubic foot. The sapwood of black walnut is nearly white, while the heartwood is light brown to dark, chocolate brown, often with a purplish cast and darker streaks. The wood is heavy, hard, and stiff and has high shock resistance.
Black Walnut is a moderately hard wood with a specific gravity of .51 per cubic centimeter when dry. Tangential shrinkage is 7.8% and radial shrinkage is 5.5%

Bill

[Guest " "]

I find the current veneer over mdf to be lacking. Veneer over plywood is better looking but damage prove. Veneer over lumber core....is both visually appealing and very resistant to edge damage.

[Gary Burley]

Hi

I live in London, England and in the 1980's/90's I was UK distributor for Impulse Horn Loudspeakers. I know how difficult it is to find quality cabinet makers and veneer finishes. Here is my story:

In March 2009, I ordered a pair of Heresay 111 in cherry, when they arrived they had transit damage, one of the cabinets was crushed where the bass speaker is. When you looked at the box and packaging you could not see how this happened (they were not insured), apart from this the cabinets and veneer finish were of the highest quality. I was so impressed with their performance that in July 2009 I ordered a single La Scala 11 in cherry (in the UK Heritage is twice the price of USA) and listened to it for 2 years in single speaker mono (see Jimmy Hughes review "Klipsch La Scala 11 back to Mono" in Hi Fi + no 77). In July 2011 I ordered another La Scala 11 in cherry for stereo listening, when it arrived it was many shades darker than the older La Scala, even looked like walnut. I sent photos to quality control in Hope and was assured it was definitley cherry but was not given a proper explanation of why it was so much darker than the older one. Just told I should have ordered them at the same time, which I accepted. The grille on the new LS11 frames the top hat on all four sides as opposed to the top and bottom on the older one. I actually prefer the new darker cherry and both speakers are built like a battleship to last forever and the veneer finish is of the highest quality. Anyhow the La Scala 11's life changing performance more than makes up for this difference in veneer colour and I am honoured to own them, I have even had the personalised brass plaques made which look great.

[hjones4841]

Ordering at the same time for custom build is the key for getting matched pairs. I believe that is what either the website says or what I was told when I asked Klipsch customer service about ordering from the factory. Each set of K'horns were bought as pairs and they match perfectly - even the wood grain is in the same place on each one.

This time I did not want to wait for the up to 8 weeks for a factory order to finish my HT project, so I ordered them from an online dealer, Vanns. Turns out they only had two in walnut in stock - one from a Montana store, one from Kentucky. I accepted that they would not be matched to get them quicker, but they are vastly different in wood grain. Color is very close, however.

I believe that dtel identified what is going on - no stain on the walnut veneer, only a clear lacquer. I do recall that the K'horns darkened some over time as I put more coats of oil on them, but there is an inherent difference in color vs. the newer ones that is not due to darkening alone.

Anyway, enough on this. Like I said earlier, if you have an older set in walnut and want others to match, new ones won't. That could be true for cherry as well, but I have not seen that finish.

[WMcD]

hjones,

I think I owe you an apology. You came on a bit strong in the "crap" statement and I came back a little smart-***. So please accept a handshake of friendship.

You description of the cracking is interesting and I don't think that has ever been mentioned elsewhere on the forum. I wonder if Klipsch will do anything for you if you complain.

Your picture was illustrative of the issue of color and figuring of the veneer. I was quite surprized. As you indicate, the HIII looks very alien compared to the traditional and beautiful Heritage.

A few thoughts.

It seems to me there is something esthetically going on.

To me, the traditional walnut has just enough figuring to make it attractive without distracting from the depth of the wood. Big figuring on small boxes is almost cartooninsh (the HIII) -- and even on the face of a K-Horn. Klipsch used to make the K-Horn in Zebrawood and Rosewood at a premium which doesn't appeal to me. At one point I tried working with bookmatched rosewood. The figuring looked liked paper dolls with big eyes and extra appendanges. Horrors.

Who knows what the people in Hope are thinking about. It could be a matter of pre-boomers, boomers, gen X, etc. and what they conceptualize as "real wood."

It could be that traditional brown walnut loved by pre-boomers and boomers has beem mimiced in vinyl too much. Therefore gen X or Y want something, anything, which doesn't look like simulated deep brown walnut -- even if it is genuine and beautiful fine grained walnut.

Quite a conundrum.

Smile,

WMcD

.

[hjones4841]

No hurt feelings here. I, too, came on strong with my emotional response. To know what could have been, but was not, was a disappointment.

The other H III is a lot straighter grain. As I said before, I knew they were not going to be matched, but these two are rather drasticly different.

My first Klipsch dealer had a matched set of K'horns and Belle in oiled rosewood and they were absolutely beautiful. Not too much grain. But he "knew a guy" in the woodworking shop at the factory.

At the end of the day with the lights out, the projector on, and the Heritage playing a first rate blu ray, all is well!

By the way, I cannot say enough good about timbre matching Heritage for HT. I commented to my wife last night that movie music tracks with A-DSX turned on seem to float in the air. Truly an experience!