The Next Step...

[ACM]

Hi All,

I've seldom ever posted but I've hung around the forum here for awhile. I've got a question for all you knowledgable Klipsch guys. I would like a little advice on my next step upgrading my 2 channel system. This is a vinyl only rig with a Technics 1200sl mk5, stock with a Denon DL160 homc. I've spent quite a bit of time setting up the table and cartridge, fussing with tracking, alignment, vta, using test records, etc. and am pretty confident it is dialed. My amp is a reworked (though not by NOS Valves) Scott 299C. The guy I got it from replaced all caps and resisters and did the ballast resister mod (or whatever that's called, I admittedly know little) and cleaned the controls. The amp is quiet and sounds great, though using my test records has shown the right channel to be weaker than the left. My speakers are '82 Cornwalls with Dave Harris' Fastrac mid horn, and recapped B2 crossovers via Bob Crites. They've got the K51V mid drivers, but I a/b'ed some K55V's from my Heresies and preferred the K51's, fwiw. Seemed a little smoother, realistic. All cables are Monster of the Bestbuy variety. So, I'm thinking the next step will be either ALK cornwall-cornscala crossovers or a better cartridge. What do you guys think? I'd like to stay in, say, a $500 and under price range. We're talking bang for the buck. Imaging is my priority and what I'd like to improve. Also, my wife enjoys the system as well and is probably more accepting than most if you guys think room treatment may be the next logicle step.

Thanks,

Adam

[artarama]

I think you pretty much have this system nailed. I am guessing that the room is decent as well, if not then you are way ahead of yourself with the equipment you have and need to take care of that first.

I think you are on the right track with the ALK cross overs but discuss the drivers you have with him. The cartridge would be my second choice to change although I have not had the 160 but I am assuming it is pretty good. You may also consider an external phono pre-amp at some point. The phono section of the 299 is good but there is always better.

Good luck and a supportive "better half" is the best system upgrade you can hope for. []

[Chris A]

We're talking bang for the buck. Imaging is my priority and what I'd like to improve. Also, my wife enjoys the system as well and is probably more accepting than most if you guys think room treatment may be the next logical step.

Have you got your speakers in the corners of the room? If so, have you cleared a path between the speakers to control early reflections? Are the speakers toed-in? Are you using the long dimension of the room?

A little room treatment around the outside of the speakers on the side walls could help a lot with imaging performance:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/154887.aspx

Chris

[ACM]

Thanks for the replies. Chris, I had actually been reading that thread a few days earlier, which started to tip me off that I have probably not addressed room treatment like I should. You guys have just confirmed my suspicions. My speakers are currently placed flat (not toed) against the long wall, with 42 inches between them. My listening position is around 8ft from the speakers, and a clear path between them and I. The room is carpeted and I listen from a mid sized, cloth covered couch. Nothin really on the walls. Ceilings are 10 feet.The sound is good, maybe really good, I guess we are all our own system's worst critics. But I do think I can get better without a lot of money. I suppose I should temporarily shelve the crossover purchase and new cartridge idea and focus on my room. I'll begin with toeing the speakers in. Should I aim them directly at the listeners ear, or perhaps a little beyond, for optimum imaging? Thanks again for the help. As has been said time and again, this is a really great forum.

[Dennie]

Hey Adam, you're correct. Deal with the room acoustics now and see how your system improves, before upgrading anything. It will make the biggest difference.

Keep us post and there are no such things as "stupid questions", so ask away.

Dennie

[Greg Oshiro]

If imaging is the primary concern, I suggest:

1. The difference between left and right needs to be addressed. If the two channels are not identical within a few dB, imaging will suffer.
2. Try spacing the speakers farther apart so the speakers and the listening position form an eqilateral triangle in plan view.
3. Experiment with toe-in angle. The optimum angle may not be pointed directly at the listening position.
4. Do the best you can to make the room symmetric about the center line.

We're eager to learn what you discover.

[Chris A]

Should I aim them directly at the listeners ear, or perhaps a little beyond, for optimum imaging?

Try aiming them directly at your listening position(s). Then try aiming them in front of your listening position (for stereo imaging stability as you move out of the "sweet spot"). You will be able to hear a difference if the early reflections are controlled well. You should retain a strong and convincing phantom center image if you sit directly between the speakers. If you can't hear a difference, then try moving some things around to clear the area around the speakers a bit more (about 30 inches from the cabinets, minimum). Don't be afraid to move most everything between the speakers out of the way temporarily. Smooth boundaries, corner placement, and toed speakers aimed directly at your listening position are the objectives that I strive for.

 

The biggest deal here is to try something out and listen for a while, then try something different. I'd go as far as tacking stuff up on the side walls and laying down stuff on the floor to change/add a little absorption or diffusion in those areas (especially when the WAF is out for a while). If you have a coffee table in the direct path, try moving out of the way for a while. If your couch is made of leather, put a blanket or comforter on it and listen again. Close your eyes and use your ears. Then you can later get ideas on what you can do to compromise on the visual part.

I've found that the potential for imaging and sound quality improvement is quite large in just adjusting room treatments and speaker placement.

Chris

P.S. I see Greg's posting after I wrote the message above. It's interesting to me how they differ very little from each other.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Chris A

[ACM]

Greg,

I have tried to compensate for the decreased right channel output with the amp's balance adjustment using test records for channel output. Is this an effective means to remedy the issue? It just occured to me that output difference could possibly be my room, not the amplifier's output. Does that sound reasonable to you guys?

I've got family in town for the weekend so I'll have to wait a couple days to really play with toe-in and room acoustics but I had a small opportunity to toe-in the speakers and play some music at a moderate volume and the initial improvement is encouraging. I am looking forward to spending more time with this.

[Dennie]

Greg,

I have tried to compensate for the decreased right channel output with the amp's balance adjustment using test records for channel output. Is this an effective means to remedy the issue? It just occured to me that output difference could possibly be my room, not the amplifier's output. Does that sound reasonable to you guys?

I've got family in town for the weekend so I'll have to wait a couple days to really play with toe-in and room acoustics but I had a small opportunity to toe-in the speakers and play some music at a moderate volume and the initial improvement is encouraging. I am looking forward to spending more time with this.

Yes, I do the same with the balance control. I sit a couple feet closer to the right speaker, than the left. Works great.

You can use things you have around the house, like rugs, blankets etc... to help "tame" the room temporarily, while you dial things in.

Keep us posted and enjoy the ride!

Dennie

[kevinmi]

I would try to locate the discrepency between channel volume before anything else. Is it only playing vinyl that you notice the volume difference, or is it the same with other sources, such as a cd player. Try reversing the left and right channel phono inputs and see if the opposite channel is louder/softer. Also check (and double-check) to make sure the speakers are hooked up in phase, meaning positive to positive. If one speaker is hooked up opposite the other, it will affect imaging greatly. I would also check the internal wiring of the speakers from the crossovers to the individual drivers. I bought a pair of Khorns once and found one of the woofers was wired backwards! If you have the Hi-Fi News test lp, playing the phase/ out of phase track can help diagnose proper phasing of the speakers. Another easy way to tell is to simply switch your speaker cables at the rear of the amp and see if anything changes. Hopefully you have already done all this trouble shooting, and I'm just wasting time here, but I've found out that I have made some pretty basic wiring mistakes no matter how careful I thought I was. It's always cheaper to find out exactly what is going on with your system before throwing money at a problem that may not exist.

Other things to consider-If your amp has a tube phono stage, try swapping the tubes from the left side to the right side. A weak tube on one side can affect the volume, and sometimes just a poor connection on the tube socket can cause problems.

Room treatments- usually a room is considered "live" or "dead", or somewhere in between. A live room will have hard surfaces and bounce sound all over the place, while a dead room will absorb sound. Room treatments are used to help with taming a room so there is a fairly balanced sound. No matter what type of room you have, if you play you system at lower levels, the room will not interfere with the sound that much. So if your system sounds off at low levels, it's probably not the room's fault (unless your speakers are really misplaced). I can turn my basement system up only so loud, and then there is so much music bouncing around that it sounds terrible. But at lower levels it sounds fine.

[ACM]

Thanks for the input all. I've got some really good info to go on. I've followed your advise and checked all speaker connections and confirmed speakers are in phase using 2 sepperate test records. Then I began to experiment with speaker placement and toe-in. Speakers are now about 65 inches apart (inside to inside) and toed-in the slightest bit down stream from the listener's position. This had a HUGE effect on imaging. I've now got a very tangible image centered between the speakers. Upon playing some test LP's again, I was amazed to find that the (perceived) difference in output was also far less, with my balance control nearly set to center. What a surprise. Many thanks for the great input. I've got a much better sounding system with no cash output thanks to all of your input.

There is one thing that has bugged me since purchasing the speakers that may play a part in my imaging... The previous owner had one of the woofers reconed. I've heard of other forum members who have had their K33's reconed only to find out the new voice coil to be 8 ohm rather than the correct 4 ohm. Any of you guys know how I can test this?

[Chris A]

I've heard of other forum members who have had their K33's reconed only to find out the new voice coil to be 8 ohm rather than the correct 4 ohm. Any of you guys know how I can test this?

You could check the DC resistance using a Volt-Ohm (multi-) meter. Both woofers should measure about the same DC resistance.

http://community.klipsch.com/forums/p/94042/952850.aspx

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/p/32882/283412.aspx#283412

You'll need to isolate the woofer leads from their crossovers temporarily to check them. My Cornwalls are easy to open up with a screwdirver.

Chris

[ACM]

Chris,

Thans for the reply. I've got the backs off of my cornwalls and the woofers disconnected from the crossover but I'm not sure what setting to use on my multi meter. There are a few settings for ohm measurement but when I connect to the leads the numbers jump around pretty eratically. I am wondering if this is due to the wrong values selected or maybe a lead from my meter has a short?

[Chris A]

...not sure what setting to use on my multi meter. There are a few settings for ohm measurement but when I connect to the leads the numbers jump around pretty erratically. I am wondering if this is due to the wrong values selected or maybe a lead from my meter has a short?

The 200 Ohm setting (next to the red terminal). If you grab each woofer lead and press against the multi-meter probes, the readings should settle down after a couple of seconds with steady, but not hard pressure between forefinger and thumb.

Chris

[ACM]

Thanks Chris.

I just took some measurements. I'm not sure about the quality of my meter because the measurements were not very consistent with repeated measuring. There seems to be anaverage of around 5.9 in woofer, and 6.2 in the other. Does this seem inline with what a K33 should measure? Fwiw, one woofer is a K33 round magnet, the other is a K33E square magnet. I wonder if there is any difference in the sound of the two? It is not obvious when rotating the balance right to left. Both tweeters are K77M square magnets, and both sqaukers and K51V's, so I have considered getting Crites' cast or stamped woofers so all drivers match. However, I'd hate to shell out the money and get no improvement in sound.

[Marvel]

I just measured a pair I have in a box, ready to go into some LS cabinets of mine. One is 3.4 and the other 3.5 ohms. Both of yours sound a little high to me, but it could be oxidation on the connections coming into play, too.

Bruce

[ACM]

Good to know. Thanks Bruce!

Looks like I may start planning for some woofers in the not too distant future. That's the great thing about this forum, I started this thread trying to decide if a new crossover or a phono cartridge would be my next logical step in better sound but after some very sound input I'm looking in a different direction all together.

[Chris A]

There seems to be an average of around 5.9 in woofer, and 6.2 in the other. Does this seem inline with what a K33 should measure? FWIW, one woofer is a K33 round magnet, the other is a K33E square magnet. I wonder if there is any difference in the sound of the two? It is not obvious when rotating the balance right to left. Both tweeters are K77M square magnets, and both squawkers and K51V's, so I have considered getting Crites' cast or stamped woofers so all drivers match. However, I'd hate to shell out the money and get no improvement in sound.

That's about 5% difference, and Bruce mentioned that there could be oxidation on the leads that might be partially responsible for the difference you measured.

The Cornwall's woofer crosses over at ~800 Hz, which is pretty high into the midrange, so I think that if you've got few bucks in your pocket, getting two Crites woofers that are the same would probably improve the imaging a bit - i.e., having matched drivers helps stereo imaging. However, you should now be aware that your woofers are the "right impedance" relative to each other. That should put your mind at ease on that subject.

Chris