mobile homeless Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Actually, one of the weakest links with the Technics is also the tonearm. While the VTA on the fly adjustment is kinda cool and good for cartridge testing, the fact that this tonearm is pretty hard to remove is problematic. I have seen some with sloppy bearings after heavy use and believe me, buying one of these beasts used these days you are taking a chance. IF in the DJ/Scratch environment, you are talking HEAVY abuse. And while the detachable headshell is a boon for cartridge changing, it is entering one more area of potential problem. I remember reading somewhere that a few had even attempted to attach an aluminum plate to the Technics inorder to mount a Rega RB-300 with modified VTA. Not sure of the findings here. I will admit that for under $200, the SL-1200 is a solid beast. btw, comparing the Technics SL-1200 to the $75,000 Rockport Sirius is beyond a leap of faith. There is almost NOTHING similar as the Rockport is completely an AIR BEARING device with the only mechanical conection between components being the stylus and the record. Every single piece is riding on a cushion of air from motor, bearing, chassis, tonearm etc. IT is a design marvel and out of touch in the real World. kh ------------------ Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 The day I spend the dollar equivalent of today's 75,000 bucks on a turntable is the day somebody better put me in the looneybin! If there are no mechanical connections except in the cartridge and the record, then what turns the platter? A jet turbine? And what is powering that turbine? And how does it keep from floating away? LOL! MH, ever hear a Technics SL-110 with a SURE/SME mounted on it? Or any later model "audiophile" tone-arms on one? Pretty awesome!! I'm a poor boy...so my old SL-1300 will have to do...I am more interested in other aspects of my system at the moment anyway. I personally would never buy a used turntable that had been used by a DJ...most were severely abused!! Empire 698 on eBay right now...bet it doesn't go cheap either...in pristine condition too!! An early 1960's Empire 298 is also on eBay...hardly used...looks brand new!! MH, this one's for you: From Stereo Review's Stereo Directory & Buying Guide 1976: Linn Sondek LP12 Manual Turntable: Single speed (33rpm) manual turntable; belt-drive; rumble -60 dB unweighted (10 cm/sec 1000 Hz signal); wow & flutter 0.04% rms; features oil-bath bearing assembly that runs in zero-wear configuration; 9-lb platter machined to within 0.001"; kiln-dried Afromosia base; hinged dust cover; comes with base and cover but less arm. $359.00 ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Indeed. It is hard to believe that table cost so little back then. By the early 80s, it was over $1000 with a gimme arm like the Basik. Add the Itok arm and you quickly hit the 1800 mark. Linn and ole Ivor Tiefenbrun did a lot to bring the turntable to a more prominent level in the early 70s. They are tricky to set up correctly but very musical when on. The only better Technics table that I have heard at length is the SL-1200. But sadly enough, I probably have played them more than most owners as 8 years at 3 or more hours a day (with the odd day off here and there) adds up to a LOT of use. I feel like I know the SL-1200 in my sleep! The other versions without the arm are more rare I guess. You dont see them as often. As for the Rockport, very few have ever SEEN one let alone heard one! The Sirius III is insanity and engineering taken to the extreme. Want to know how the air bearing motor works? "It's an engineering masterpiece designed and built specifically for this application by an outside vendor, with all air-bearing surfaces ground by a company called Professional Instruments. The air-bearing, eddy-current motor drive, and optical encoder (rigidly attached to the bottom of the drive shaft) are integrated into one compact 25-lb unit. Clearance in the air gap is measured in millionths of an inch, with machining tolerances 10 times smaller! In Payor technotalk, the spindle bearing is a hydrostatic air bearing with an integrally mounted, pure-induction motor and coaxially mounted optical encoder that generates velocity and position signals used by the drive system controller. The spindle is a fully pre-loaded Rayleigh (or step) compensated radial bearing with a scavenged thrust axial bearing. It operates at a high pressure and low flow with a Reynold's Number far below the onset of turbulence." Total radial and axial error motions are claimed to be well below 0.000005". Other so-called "air-bearing" drives use air only in the axial direction, with the radial load supported by a standard sleeve-and-shaft assembly, and thus make mechanical contact unavoidable."c>Well, this is a tad different than the Technics application. They both DO play the same records, potentially, that is. kh Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 06-14-2002 at 01:39 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clipped and Shorn Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Specifications for the Rockport turntable: Description: Air-bearing, servo-controlled, direct-drive, pneumatic-suspension turntable with linear-tracking air-bearing tonearm and integral stand, compressor, 50' of air tubing, and 3 counterweights. Dimensions: 24" W by 32" H by 19" D. Weight: 550 lbs. Serial number of unit reviewed: none noted. Price: $73,750 (50% deposit required with order, balance to be paid one week in advance of shipment). Factory-direct only. Warranty: 2 years, parts & labor. Manufacturer: Rockport Technologies, 229 Mill Street, Rockport, ME 04856. Tel: (207) 596-7151. Fax: (207) 596-7151. The similarity, and the point I was making, is that the Rockport like the Technics 1200 MkII is a servo controlled direct drive system, it most certainly is not belt driven. This was first pointed out to me in a conversation with Kevin, from whom I acquired the Technics 1200 because I wanted his mods which include the 78 speed and some other accessories he manufactures. http://www.kabusa.com/BSTD_AE.htm Quoted below is some of a recent email conversation I had with him: "First, many people confuse cheap direct drives with FG servo direct drives. The peak W&F, a spec even belt drive mfg's don't measure is 0.035% for the 1200 and that beats most weighted belt drive measurements. With a frequency generator servo, the speed is dead on, there is no hunting. The noise is also pure myth, the rumble on a 1200 is -78dB, that is only 2 db away from a vpi hw19. http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Hills/4133/tt1.html Further, all belt drives suffer from load induced speed fluctations- from belt tension, and the static and dynamic friction of the stylus. The Rega for instance loses 2% of its free rotating speed when the needle hits the groove and then speeds back up as the end of the record nears! The 1200 suffers from none of that. KAB produces one of the better speed strobes on the market and I field calls from audiophiles all year long on the subject of stylus drag. Of course, the ability to hear these things all depends on the listeners set of skills, and priorities. I have had Rega owners admit to all these shortcommings and still declare their love for the sound. I do not argue with any of that, If you like it that is fine. I just think it is important not to lump the 1200's in the same basket with gemini's, numarks and all the other tables that come out of taiwan. The motor control technology is radically different I have an entire page dedicated to explaining drive methods. www.kabusa.com/ttdrive.htm Even the hi end knows that direct drive is king, just look at the Rockport Technologies $60,000 machine. And believe me, if Rockport could sell 10,000 of those a month, they would reduce the electronics to 3 integrated circuits and the price to something more affordable. (That is what Technics did in 1979.) But they do not have that market and so that 'table tends to resemble the laboratory version of the 1200 in 1978! Can you imagine what the 1200 looked like before the IC's were made. A big box of electronics and hand machined motor.! It really is all about resources and market. If you have huge resources and a huge market, you can make state of the art at a low price. Everyone should remember that the 1200 MK2 is the stepchild of the no holds barred SP series. It shares every bit of technology that those tables have. Most people who have heard the 1200 MK2's, will admit that they make great sound. Those that hold pitch stability dear will find the 1200's beat belt drive technology every time. It took me 12 years to hear the problems with belt drive and to stop blaming the sound on the record or the cutting process. It was the 1200 MK2 that made that revelation. A really good review for everyone to read is Tony Cordesman's review of the VPI TNT he did for Audio Mag I think in 1989 or 1990. This is the model with the flywheel. It is important because it is the first and I think last time that a review talked about dynamic stylus drag. And it is one of those defining moments when you realize that someone else hears what you hear: The alter of pitch after loud passages. It is the slowing of the drive system due to drag. I used blame it on the cutter! The 1200 has complete control over this. The only way belt drive can do it is to pre load the motor with a precision drag that is more than the added drag of the stylus. That is what the VPI flywheel does. But there is a 20 to on price difference to acheive the same thing." -C&S ------------------ Cornwalls currently upgrading to all tube components This message has been edited by Clipped and Shorn on 06-14-2002 at 03:54 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Talking about ROCKPORT and TECHNICS T/T's, in our Club's site I have a personal Hi-End page of a guy having the (small !!) Sirius II and a club member having a Technics SP10 MkII. Click the pictures below to see their profiles (comments & interesting photographs): After some weeks, may be I will have a surprise for you... Christos Skaloumbakas President of the Audiophile Club of Athens __________________________ web address: http://aca.gr/ e-mail: http://aca.gr/email.htm _____________________________________ My System: http://aca.gr/pop_skal.htm This message has been edited by skaloumbakas on 06-14-2002 at 07:36 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 FYI: In fairness to the Technics line of turntables, here are the specs for their top of the line audiophile turntable from 1976...same source as above for the Linn: Technics SP-10-II Single-Play Turntable: Three-speed (33, 45, & 78 rpm) turntable with phase-lock quartz-crystal speed control of low-speed, direct-drive D.C. brushless motor; build-up time to precise speed within 25 degree rotation (0.25 sec.) at 33-1/3 rpm; stop time (magnetic brake) within 30 degree rotation (0.3 sec.); long-term speed stability +/- 0.002% (within +/- 36 ms over 30-min. period, less than 3/4 sec. in 10 hours); wow & flutter 0.025% weighted rms; rumble -70 dB; solenoid controls (including remote). MSRP: $499.95 ------------------ I can now receive private messages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted June 14, 2002 Share Posted June 14, 2002 Holy Moly! That system with the Rockport looks more like the Imperial Chapel of the Palace of the Dogon Emperors! "Enter in FEAR, and keep silent." GOOOOLEEE, guess I'd better give muh Gramophone another winding... Dave ------------------ David A. Mallett Average system component age: 30 years. Performance: Timeless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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