Klipsch RF 82 II and Harman Kardon AVR 260 sounds �poor�: Solution ?

[Druss]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum and this is as well the
first time I bought some HiFi/HC stuff.

Let’s try to do a simple presentation of my gears and
problem.

******************** GEARS ********************

I bought few days ago a pair of RF 82 II with the Harman
Kardon AVR 260 amplifier (which deliver 45-50w per channel).

I use some generic 3.5 cable wichi is plugged, without a
banana to the 82 and to the AVR 260.

The source is a PC, either MP3 (128kbs to FLAC file) or CD.

Here how it’s plugged :

PC (Graphic Card HDMI) > Amp > Speaker

Ø Optic
to the TV

When I launched a CD it’s launch from the computer, so via
HDMI.

******************** INSTALLATION ********************

Let’s speak about the speaker position in the room, a
picture will explain better that some line but in general :

-
- Speaker are at about 25cm from the wall

-
- Speaker are at about 2.3m from my sitting
position

I’m use to hear music at a
low level, wich is “-45db” on my amp, I’ll say that we can speak to each other
without have to shout.

For information I listen
some metal music, which can be Black/Death Metal standard music, or Black Metal
with symphonic orchestra, or more Hard / Electro from time to time.

******************** PROBLEMS ********************

Well, this is about my
general presentation, let’s speak now about the problem I’m facing :

-
- Lack of “live”
feeling

-
- Lack of “bass”

-
- Lack of “surround”,
mean lack of feeling that each instrument is “split”, the sound image is like
compressed

I will say that the result
is almost like my computer speaker, Logitech Z4 (ok the ambiance is much better
on the Klipsch).

I configured the amp as best
as I can, mean put the stereo mode on, set the speaker setting as “large”
(which mean that the speaker has a large range of sound) and remove all the eq.

On the computer I configured
the HDMI audio output to the “studio mode”, 192khz as I remember and selected
as well sterero and large band.

I tested the RF 62 II +
Harman Kardon AVR 460 in a auditorium, with my CD and the result was GREAT. For
sure, the room was build for sound, and the speaker at about 4m, so I guess it
make the whole difference (or maybe the CD Player, a Denon at about 600$).

******************** IMPROVEMENT ********************

So I am planning to do this
change :

-
- To buy a CD Player (I
do not yet if I’ll spend like 30$ for a cheap DVD player with optical or ike
200$ for a second hand Cambridge Audio Azur Player).

Does a CD Player like a Cambridge Audio Azur 351C will definetly increase my sound quality ?
Or does Cambridge Audio do not fit so good with Klipsch ?

Or should I listen / Am I
force to hear louder the music in order feel the “live” effect ?

Does my RF 82 II are too big for my room (about 25-30m² in total and I planned to moved in about 1 years), mean does some RF 52 II can do "better" ?

Ok I’m disappointed, perhaps
I am to hard with my wishes (I play guitar as well and went to a ton of gigs)
but the point is that some “lowest gears was better in the shop”

That’s it !

Does someone else had the
same problem ?

What can I improve ?

Thank for your further input
!

[Schu]

source material or amp set up is the issue

[derrickdj1]

Welcome to the forum. Did you use the Ez setup option to setup the speakers, distance, EQ, channel levels, timing, ect.? Try another soruce and see if the results are better. Is that a sub next to the left speaker? If it is set speakers to small and use the sub.

[Druss]

It's a stereo installation thereforeI cannot use the Eq/E wizard at it works only for a 5.1 / 7.1.

I have also no sub as the the RF 82 II, with a 8inch speacker should be able to deliver enought bass and presence.

[derrickdj1]

I was not exactly sure of your setup. Did you use the manual setup in the avr and put in the xo, distance, ect? You should have enough power, try a cd player to compare. Some type of files from a computer play a lot softer and less dynamic than other sources and you may have to increase the volume by 15 db. For example, listening to Pandora radio on my BDP the volume is a -40 but Pandora radio over my PC, i use -25-30 . Lack of bass should not be a problem for the RF 82's in that size room. Others will chime in and help!!!

[Druss]

Hi derrickdj1,

I was not exactly sure of your setup. Did you use the manual setup in the avr and put in the xo, distance, ect? You should have enough power, try a cd player to compare. Some type of files from a computer play a lot softer and less dynamic than other sources and you may have to increase the volume by 15 db. For example, listening to Pandora radio on my BDP the volume is a -40 but Pandora radio over my PC, i use -25-30 . Lack of bass should not be a problem for the RF 82's in that size room. Others will chime in and help!!!


Hi,

yes I configured the speakers, mean :
- select the distance (2.1m)
- select the range as "large", mean which have a better range than, by example 40hz

As I said I am use to listen music at a low level, and I guess that this is one of the problem, perhaps the "bigger" one !

Regarding the source, yeah, I noticed the db difference, so either I have to increase the db on the PC player (Monkey Audio), either I have to increase the power on the amp wich I do not like (overheating is my nightmare).

For sure as well, the source has a big impact, by example, I did a test yesterday with :

- MP3 128kbs
- MP3 192kbs
- FLAC (about 40mb per song of 4min)
- CD on the PC and on the PS3 (connected via HDMI to the amp)
- Launch FLAC file from the PS3 and from the PC

Well, the FLAC file, via the PS3, seem to be better, my friend and I agree. Much dynamic, bass are there and if you push up a little bit the level you can feel some "live" things.

However I heard no difference with a CD (Opeth - Blackwater park) either with the PC CD reader or with the PS3.

I still have plenty of MP3 128kb and for sure, the quality is bad, even if I can heard a better sound of some comparating to my computer audio gears (Altec Lansing FX6021).

The plan is definetitly to buy much more CD and a cd player (first I though about a Harman Kardon 980 but right now I am looking over the Cambridge Audio).Saturday a friend of mine should come with a CD player (a Marantz) and we will perform some test.

I am sure that the speaker can deliver some great sound, as and I said, the RF 62 II in a smaller room was great, better than my actual setup / gears, this is why I am fearing that the sound can only be better if I increase the db.

This come to my question, how "loud" are listening the music ?
Are you able to speak to someone in the sametime, easly, hardly, or is it impossible ?

Yeah I know, a lot of question pop up in my mind, but it make me "crazy" to heard a "poor" sound from such speaker like the RF 82 II.

[ivanhurd]

When you step up to a speaker like this, if the source material is crappy, the sound is going to be crappy. I had this same problem when listening to lower bit MP3s. Bass and treble is the first thing to go in compressing audio. I'm going to say that buying a 'nicer' CD player isn't going to help you. Try moving the speakers further away from each other if you can, maybe even pull them a little bit more from the wall. Also, 45-50w is not a lot for these speakers, but you will get that full power since you are only driving the 2. If you are really wanting to 'upgrade' something, I'd get an AVR with more power, something around 100w. Have you tried running the EZ setup even tho it only gives you the 5.1/7.1 option? Might be worth a shot if you haven't already. Just pick 5.1 and see what happens.

[Druss]

Hi,

Well, sure, bad MP3 is for sure, a problem.
However I have some good source, like FLAC, it's better, but not "fantastic".

I plan to buy a second amp in the next month, a HiFi, but:

- I will like to use the HK amp for movies / PC

- I will like to use the HIFI amp when I'm listening some CD (so I'll buy as well a CD player)

- I will like that both of them are pair, mean, that the AVR will get some additionnal power from the HiFi, and same for the HifI amp (so HC amp, as amp and Hifi amp as power amp, for movies, and the reverse for music)

This is one thing.

Regarding the EZ setup, for 5.1, I tried it yesterday and I was disapointed !
I plugge the mic and run the test and ... I try to get some info from the sub ! But as I do not own a sub, well, it can not listen anything.

For moving the gears, well, as you saw on the picture the "sofa quarter" is small, I cannot move anymore, so perhaps the angle, or 2 to 5cm cm more, mean it will be at around 30cm from the wall, but not more, as I'll be close to the speaker so I'll have to move as well the sofa, and etc.

[Druss]

I forgot to mention how I "plugged" the amp and the speaker.

For
the amp it's easy, I "unplug" the cable, mean put directly the nude
cable around the entry input of the speaker and "close" this entry by
turning down the bottom.

For the amp I did it in an other way, I use what is call "a cosse" :



Mine are 'gold' and cut in order that I can put it around the speaker entry.

Does this details can make a huge difference ?

When
I got the speaker and amp I had no cable, therefore I bought a 2.5m of
3.5 audio cable and also this cosse as I didn't know what can of input
is use in order to plug in into the RF 82 II and the amp.

[derrickdj1]

I like Ivanhurds' suggestion of more power. Those speaker shine as the power level goes up. I use 128 kb mp3's with good results but, like the ones from Amazon.com which are 224 kbs or higher. I listen to a lot of sotfter music so I don't use the volume that a lot of the members here use. At night the volume is on average -50 but there are something with heavy bass that I like at -20 db. Don't worry about overheating unless the avr is getting really hot. The HK is not a Class A unit and heat should not be a big problem. Sometimes we think of more watts but, the preamp is as important if not more for good sound.

[Dennie]

******************** PROBLEMS ********************

Well, this is about my
general presentation, let’s speak now about the problem I’m facing :

-
- Lack of “live”
feeling

-
- Lack of “bass”

-
- Lack of “surround”,
mean lack of feeling that each instrument is “split”, the sound image is like
compressed

Ok I’m disappointed, perhaps
I am to hard with my wishes (I play guitar as well and went to a ton of gigs)
but the point is that some “lowest gears was better in the shop”

That’s it !

What can I improve ?

Thank for your further input
!

Welcome to the Klipsch Forums Druss, we're glad you're here. [<)]

Speaker placement is critical. Try to get the speakers spread out as far as possible, as this will give you much better stereo separation/soundstage. Toe them in toward the listening position. This will take time and patience. Small increments and listen for a while, move a little more and listen for a while and so on and so on. I think I fooled around with placement for a couple of weeks (with my La Scalas) before I found the right placement.

I too think you could use more power. Even though "Klipsch" speakers don't require a lot of power, I think you are under powering those fine speakers and not getting the bass you desire. Try switching the speaker setting to small, instead of large and this will reduce the load on the amp. I know it will also reduce the bottom end/bass, but lets get the speakers sounding good first, then we can go back to the large setting and see how it sounds. You may need to add a subwoofer latter on, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Don't worry too much about the wires/cables now. As long as you have everything connected properly, we can work with what you've got. DO MAKE SURE YOU HAVE BOTH SPEAKERS CONNECTED Plus (+) from the AVR to Plus (+) on the speaker and Minus (-) to Minus (-), as this will cancel out your bass if you have one backwards.

Keep us posted and congratulations on your new speakers!

Dennie

[ivanhurd]

I didn't think of checking the phase. Might be a good idea to double check that.

[Dennie]

I didn't think of checking the phase. Might be a good idea to double check that.

We always work better as a team!!

I don't know where I'd be without you guys.

........

Dennie

[Druss]

Hi !

Thank for your post !

I checked and the space between the speaker is about 1.6m, which seem to the maximum as after I am to cloose the edge wall.

I also increase the angle, seem to more "dynamic", better, this is a good thing !

I also forget to mention that the speaker are mount on the pick.

Thank for the idea of checking the + and -, I'll check it tomorrow as a friend will bring an amp and cd player.

In my souvenir it's plugged in a good way, but only the input at the top are plugged, I keeped on place the metallic bar which link the input of the top and of the down.

[Druss]

Hi !

A friend of mine came with an other amp (Marantz 6002) and CD Player (Marantz 6002 as well) and we did some test.

As low level, the sound either with the HK or Marantz amp sound "flat".
If we increase the sound here we can hear a difference, the Marantz is softer, more precise (of course this is a Hifi amp) and the source, CD player, change also a little bit the result (test on my HK).

However the final think is quite clear : my room is too small to manage this RF 82 II.
I'm at 2.2- 2.4 from the speaker and if I have to increase the level the sound is better but it almost hurt my ears.

I think that perhaps I didn't do a good deal with this 82 II, 62 II should be a better option.

I do not want to sell it, buy some 62 II and compare (too much time, effort, etc), but I guess that explain my problem. Seem I did, perhaps, a mistake, for now, about this 82II as they require some "medium volume level", but as I'll get a house / flat in 2 years I prefer to keep it !

For general information, at which sound level are you listen your 82 II ? Are your far from the speaker ?

Thank !

[ivanhurd]

I have a denon and I usually have it from -30 to -50 depending on time of day and content and source I'm playing from. I sit about 3 m from mine and they are split about 2.25 meters apart.

[derrickdj1]

my room is too small to manage this RF 82 II.

They could be the problem. Some RB 81'.s on stands may also be a great option.

[Druss]

Well, it's not a good idea to buy some other speaker, my gf will not understand why I bought big speaker for.. nothing.

No, the sound is not very poor but can be better.

Does some you notice some change after 100 hours ? Does the speaker need some time before they can "sing" ?

[Dennie]

Well, it's not a good idea to buy some other speaker, my gf will not understand why I bought big speaker for.. nothing.

No, the sound is not very poor but can be better.

Does some you notice some change after 100 hours ? Does the speaker need some time before they can "sing" ?

Some say yes and some say no, to "break in" time. What amp are you using? Are you still using the 45-50 wpc AVR?

If so, that are still way underpowered. Try something with about 200 - 300 wpc, as you can never have to much "head room".

I'm not saying you need to play them louder, I'm suggesting a bigger amp to fill in the bottom end, without having to turn the volume up too much.

Dennie

[ivanhurd]

I don't think his HK has pre-outs. I would say get a better AVR if you can with more power and pre-outs if you want to add an amp later.