K-Horn Bass Response Lacking

[The Yeti]

I've never been very impressed with the bass response from my K-Horns...I never really noticed how much bass they lacked until my subs stopped working.

From reading around the inter-web, I seem to have the perfect room for the K-Horns. The speakers are situated in the corners of my living room (20'x15'), along the longest wall (20'). Room is carpeted, and the walls are covered in knotty pine - 6" wide boards over sheet rock, running horizontally with a small seam between each board. Could this wall surface have an effect on bass response? I wouldn't think so, the walls are very solid.

I'm about to try the pipe insulation trick because they aren't super tight in the corners, I think my walls/floor aren't exactly square - I've got the insulation, just need to clean out the dust bunnies from behind the K-Horns first.

I'm wondering if there could be something wrong with my crossovers...? Is there a way to test them?

BTW, I'm driving them with a Denon 2113ci, and I've been testing by setting the AVR to STEREO with FULL RANGE fronts.

[Turbox]

With a bass response down to below 35Hz, something sounds a miss. it is possible to test them. Is it also possible that you've become used to the sound with a sub. the xover could be bad i guess. when was the last time you refreshed the caps. Im not sure of the exact characteristics of a capacitor as it ages, ie capacitance up or down? that will likely affect the the bass response, but im thinking it would affect the upper cutoff frequency and rolloff more so than the bottom end, the bottom end is a low pass filter is all...

Sounds fishy though...either way, there are many others on here more experienced than i. Im sure the Khorn guys will jump in at some point.

[Chris A]

The speakers are situated in the corners of my living room (20'x15'), along the longest wall (20'). Room is carpeted, and the walls are covered in knotty pine - 6" wide boards over sheet rock, running horizontally with a small seam between each board. Could this wall surface have an effect on bass response? I wouldn't think so, the walls are very solid.

I agree, the room walls sound as if they're pretty solid. The only possible issue that I see is the room relative dimensions. How high is your ceiling, if I might ask?

I'm about to try the pipe insulation trick because they aren't super tight in the corners, I think my walls/floor aren't exactly square - I've got the insulation, just need to clean out the dust bunnies from behind the K-Horns first.

This will help - the speakers need to form good seals in their corners from the tailpieces against the walls' corners. Make sure that the speakers are on the floor, and not raised up with a gap underneath (i.e., spikes, risers, etc.)

I'm wondering if there could be something wrong with my crossovers?

This will likely affect the midrange/tweeter frequencies if your crossover capacitors are too old. I'd just replace the capacitors in the crossovers with like microfarad values: It helps to use film capacitors (your choice of brand). I wouldn't use electrolytic capacitors.

Where do you sit in the room? Does the bass response sound much better when you walk toward one of the walls?

Note that Khorns will roll off very rapidly below 32 Hz so if you're expecting output below this frequency, like that which you get with subs in the 20 Hz and below region, you'll be disappointed. The Khorn is a 1/4 wavelength horn that is designed for a 40 Hz cutoff frequency, and that is extended to ~32 Hz (-3 dB point) with good corner loading.

Chris

[The Yeti]

How high is your ceiling, if I might ask?

8 feet.

Make sure that the speakers are on the floor, and not raised up with a gap underneath

They are on carpet. From what I've read, a solid surface is better. We are due for new carpet, but I'm now considering hard wood flooring just for the K-Horns.

Where do you sit in the room?

I sit about 11' back, in the center of the room. I know that 10' would be the perfect sweet spot for the corner horns, but will have to do some re-arranging to accomplish that.

Does the bass response sound much better when you walk toward one of the walls?

I'll test that out and let you know.

Note that Khorns will roll off very rapidly below 32 Hz so if you're expecting output below this frequency, like that which you get with subs in the 20 Hz and below region, you'll be disappointed.

No, I'm not expecting sub-like output, but I just know their not giving all they can. Thanks for the responses so far, very helpful!

[Chris A]

I sit about 11' back, in the center of the room. I know that 10' would be the perfect sweet spot for the corner horns, but will have to do some re-arranging to accomplish that.

I'd recommend moving back toward the rear wall, actually. Being on-axis with Khorns isn't necessary-- most people sit further back than on the 45 diagonals, since the diagonals are a problem for bass response/room modes. And there are other issues with an 8' ceiling with the Khorn midrange.

Your carpet is good: I don't recommend going to bare floors. In fact, if you can use a couple of bass traps in the rear corners, this will reduce "room boom". You can also place something absorbent on top of the Khorns, letting the material stick out in front a few inches (see this thread for more information on the Khorn midrange horn issue).

Does your Denon have EQ capaiblities for the fronts, specificially parametric EQ filters? If not, then I'd recommend tilting the bass section up a bit and use the graphic equalizer fitlers to pull down the 250-300 Hz region a couple of dB, and also pull down the 170 Hz region a dB or two.

Chris

[The Yeti]

In order to get my back against a wall, I would have to rotate my setup 90 degrees so that the K-Horns are on the shorter (15') wall. Are you saying this would maybe be preferable??

[Chris A]

In order to get my back against a wall, I would have to rotate my setup 90 degrees so that the K-Horns are on the shorter (15') wall. Are you saying this would maybe be preferable??

If you've got no bass response now, then I'd recommend the short wall: 15 feet separation between the Khorns is good.

I'd stay away from 1/2, 1/3, and 1/4 multiples of the lengthwise distance of the room to listen to your Khorns. Staying further back than centerline is better, since your Khorns are probably not time-aligned.

Chris

[Wrench722]

Auto door weather stripping

[The Yeti]

I made up a crude drawing of my living room, might help with questions.

[Chris A]

Well, the issue that I see is the placement of your "MLP" on the inset on the room's boundaries. I have a similar inset in my room and I find that both the bass and the imaging are a bit odd at that boundary, but they both get much better in front of and behind that inset boundary. I'd actually recommend that you move forward a foot or two (two would be better)

I assume that you are crossing to your subs at some low frequency (like 40 -50 Hz). I wouldn't use a higher crossover frequency since the bass coming from your Khorns will be much cleaner than that coming from the subs, in terms of amplitude modulation (AM) distortion.

The other observation is the location of your subs - have you tried to move them to the corners next to your "Sur R" and "Sur L" positions? You will likely get much better extended and smooth lf response at those positions, with lower AM distortion. You will probably need to EQ the subs flat again in those suggested positions since they will be gaining via the coupling to the room corners, thus lowering required sub cone motion required.

Just my $0.02.

Chris

[Guest " "]

I have LaScala's in a simular room lay out. WIth flat controls and no sub, my tweeter gain are set to -3db, my mids to +- 0db, and my woofers set to +6db. So my room is both too bright and absorbs bass.

[The Yeti]

Following your advice, I plan on re-arranging my LR to resemble the pic below. This is how I had it arranged originally (until about 5 years ago). But, from reading that I should be in the K-Horns "sweet-spot", I moved the speakers to the long wall.

If memory serves, I think it did sound better the old way - I'll find out this weekend.

Does this sub placement look better? I currently have my FL & FR crossed over at 80hz (as are all speakers). Are you saying I should lower that?

The thing that always bugged me about this setup is that my FL K-Horn doesn't have enough wall - that could be remedied with a false wall I suppose.

Thanks for all your help!

Alan

P.S. Why is it my paragraphs never translate to my post??

[Chris A]

Does this sub placement look better? I currently have my FL & FR crossed over at 80hz (as are all speakers). Are you saying I should lower that?

Yes - to 40 Hz, if you can. You mentioned that you have set the AVR to "large" for your fronts. IIRC, this will put the subs and your Khorns in parallel from the subs' and Khorns' lowest FR up to 80 Hz. You may feel that you need that type of overlap, but I find that lowering the crossover point to 40 Hz cleans up bass FR performance quite a bit in my setup. If you experience a loss of bass doing this that is not desired, simply tilt up the Khorn bass FR using your AVR's EQ controls by a couple of dB.

The thing that always bugged me about this setup is that my FL K-Horn doesn't have enough wall - that could be remedied with a false wall I suppose.

Just put a bookcase about the height of the bass bin on that side, back to the Khorn to extend the short wall to hear the difference before making a false corner.

P.S. Why is it my paragraphs never translate to my post?

Your browser isn't inserting the "<p>" and "</p>" at the beginning and end of paragraphs. You can insert these manually - even retroactively using the "edit" command.

Chris

[garymd]

Have you ever heard your Khorns with something other than the Denon? I've never had any luck with HT receivers for 2-channel listening.

[Youthman]

Harman Kardon tend to have a very full bottom end sound to it.

[The Yeti]

Have you ever heard your Khorns with something other than the Denon? I've never had any luck with HT receivers for 2-channel listening.

Yes.

Back in the "Golden Years" (mid-90s, when my financial situation was much better), I owned a Lexicon DC-1 and a couple of higher-end Carver amps. After I had to sell those, I had a lower end (~$250) receiver for a few years, and now the Denon. I have never had a dedicated 2 channel setup, the KHorns have always been a part of my HT setup. I rarely listen to music in 2 channels anymore...with the vast majority of my music in MP3 format (albeit 320k) I just don't see the point of a dedicated 2 channel system - I just can't afford to do it right. My goal now is to try to work with what I got and make it sound the best it can.

[Chris Robinson]

Just as a casual comment here ... All the guys are on the right track here.

I upgraded my crossovers to ALK's some years ago but never realized how bring the midrange horns were until I put V-Tracs in their places and dialed back the midrange on crossovers. Wow! The K-horn really sounded like something I'd never heard before with PLENTY of bass.

Chris