K-Horn Issues

[The Yeti]

So, last night I messed around with trying to get phantom center to work. I got it to work - not sure if I like it, but that's another story...it's how I got there that's kind of worrying me:

I was messing around with FL/R toe-in and settings in the AVR to try and get the center to image in the center of my TV. The setting that finally did it was my crossover - I've had it set to 80hz for all speakers, but raising it to 120hz is what finally created the phantom. This also made my entire system sound better; better imaging, better bass (esp. in the center channel/voices)...just an overall "smoothness" I didn't have before.

Now, what's worrying me is that my FL/R are Klipschorns, but they are almost 20 years old. I'm thinking there's something wrong with them, most likely culprits would be the bass drivers or crossovers - both fairly expensive to replace.

Gonna do some FR measurements tonight to see if the bass is actually smoother or it's just my ears, but the imaging is definitely much better at 120hz. BTW, my subs are up front so even at 120hz, no localization issues.

I'm really happy my system is sounding even better than before, but I hate that my K-Horns aren't performing up to their potential!

[dtel]

I was messing around with FL/R toe-in

You are using Khorns for the front L & R, how are you changing the toe-in ? Do you have false corners or backs on the Khorns ?

If not that could be why they are not up to there potential if not tight and sealed in the corner.

Phantom should come naturally to just a front L & R, even in stereo the image should come from the center. Phantom on a AVR just means the signal that would normally go to the center is sent to the front L R, it has nothing to do with sounding like the sound is from the center, that automatically happens when the L R speakers are positioned correctly.

If your room does not allow for the Khorns to make the sound appear in the center on even stereo because of dimensions compared to where you sit, you probably need to make false corners to point them in the correct direction. This will help greatly with stereo and phantom will work correctly.

And I would not worry about drivers if they are working, the crossover at 20 years old probably do need work, just replacing the caps will do the job and it's the cheapest way, and should bring the speakers back to spec and if you can soldier you can diy.

Sorry if I am missing something, I don't know about your setup but that's the way I read it.

[Chris A]

Wow, there are a lot of issues that you raise. In order to pick things apart, I'll need a bit more information...

I was messing around with FL/R toe-in

Khorns without false corners HAVE to be symmetrically aligned in their corners (i.e., 45 degrees to each wall) in order to avoid a 200-300 Hz "suck out" due to the two mouths of the Khorn bass bin formed by the speaker and the walls being different size. Sorry to bring bad news...

The setting that finally did it was my crossover - I've had it set to 80hz for all speakers, but raising it to 120hz is what finally created the phantom.

This begs the question: do you have a speaker in the middle? I assume not since you referred to "the phantom". In this case the next question is: what are the dimensions of your room (length, width and height)? Also, where do you sit in relation to the fronts - how many feet from the front wall?

This doesn't sound like a Khorn problem, but a room acoustics problem. I'd strongly recommend placing some acoustically absorbent material, such as heavy tapestries, comforters, blankets or acoustic absorber panels on the side walls and the front wall next to your Khorns, extend out 2-3 feet from each speaker, put some carpet down on the floor if it is bare, and put some acoustic absorbent material on top of the Khorn tops allowing it to stick out from the front a little to absorb midrange horn energy spilling onto the ceiling. Then repeat your test with "phantom center imaging". I believe you will hear a dramatic difference when you get on centerline between your Khorns.

Now, what's worrying me is that my FL/R are Klipschorns, but they are almost 20 years old. I'm thinking there's something wrong with them, most likely culprits would be the bass drivers or crossovers - both fairly expensive to replace.

The only issue that I'd guess is that the capacitors in your Khorn crossovers may need to be replaced, and the symptom will be tonal imbalance of the speaker, usually faint highs and midrange.

Once you provide a little more information, perhaps you might get better potential diagnoses of the problem(s) and solutions. In any event, replacement of bass bins or drivers isn't the solution, IMHO.

Chris

[The Yeti]

Thanks Guys!

I'm attaching a pic of my living room here:

Not everything is to scale - the subs aren't really that tight between the TV and K-Horns for example. Just a quick drawing I made in Paint. Measurements are correct, though. I know, I know...the FL K-Horn doesn't have enough wall to the left side, an unfortunate necessity due to WAF. I've come to expect less than stellar FR from the FL.

Couple of details I left out:

I do have a center speaker - Klipsch KV-4

For these tests, I am running the K-Horns WITH my dual subs.

The room is carpeted, 8' ceiling. The room itself sounds pretty good, pretty absorbent with the carpet and all the furniture,

I was playing around with toe-in for the phantom center because I just wanted to hear what it sounded like and, like I said, I think I prefer the center channel on.

I do know the K-Horns need to be tight in the corners, I even have pipe foam on 'em. I was just playing with toe-in to see if I could get the center image to work before maybe spinning the top hats. But, like I said, I got great imaging (with them tight in corners, and even though I'm not in the "sweet spot"), but only when my crossover was set to 120hz - anywhere below that and the image just falls apart.

Acoustic treatments are in my plans, but I want to do some FR measurements first to see exactly where the problems are. I'm just now learning REW.

[dtel]

Ok I get it now, I was worried you had never had them tight in the corner. We have seen that before, people just didn't know and couldn't figure out why they didn't have bass and it sounded funny, so I had to ask.

A couple of things, when a center is used with a AVR much of the sound and almost all voices are from the center, the KV-4 doesn't stand a chance keeping up with Khorns. But if it sounds ok to you try it out.

The other thing and I have never really asked this is doesn't the top of the Khorn come off ? If so why couldn't it be turned while leaving the bass bin tight in the corner ? Keeping the good bass and also aiming the mid and high horn right where you need them.

I say this because if the drawing is anything close to the real room your Khorn's are kind of pointing to the end of the coffee table at best and really should be toed out even for stereo.

Just asking, I don't have khorns so i don't know the answer.

[The Yeti]

Well, like I said, my drawing is badly done and not to scale. [+o(]

The sweet spot is actually 7.5' into the room (the wall that the K-Horns are on is 15' wide), I sit about 15' back - so, yeah, I'm outa the sweet spot for sure.

To me, it still sounds damn good but the whole reason I did this little phantom center experiment was to try and improve my imaging, with the thought in mind that if toe-ing in the K-Horns accomplishes that, I can always disconnect the tops and turn them to move the sweet spot to my MLP while keeping the bass bins tight in the corners. After toe-ing in didn't work for me last night, but dramatically changing the crossover did, I want to know why! [^o)]

You're the first that's said the KV-4 "doesn't stand a chance of keeping up", others on AVS have said that it's pretty comparable to Klipsch's current top-of-the-line centers. I've had the same speakers for almost 20 years and have always thought it did a respectable job...of course, I know no different, so maybe I'm wrong. I've never had the chance to be in a home theater that was actually better than my own.

I've often thought about a La Scala or Cornwall (or even Heresy) center, but the logistics of making it fit in with the decor (that damn WAF again!) has always discouraged me.

Thanks for the input! It's appreciated.

[dtel]

I have never heard a KV-4 but it is by far not close to the top of the line centers, not that Klipsch makes a center for Khorns. [:S] Not that it's a bad center just was designed for speakers way down the line from khorns and small to try to keep up. But it's like anything, if it sounds good there is no problem.

If I were you I would at least try turning just the top half of your khorn and see what happens, you might get the best of both worlds, nice bass and imaging in the right spot in the room, it's free which is the best kind .

I do understand the WAF thing, but I don't have those problems because my wife loves this stuff.

Your wife would have heart failure if she seen the speakers in our living room, 6 forte's for Ht and MWM's with 402 horns on top for 2 ch and a folded horn sub in the corner.....the big speakers were actually my wifes idea after she heard them. [Y]

This is what it looks like

http://s1228.beta.photobucket.com/user/dtel2/library/#/user/dtel2/library/MWM?&_suid=135916526929205558038582148594

[Tremors]

HOLY CRAP! You sir, are not messing around when it comes to living room setups Your setup, too me, would be less Wife.Acceptance.Factor and more World.Acceptance.Factor. IF you live in the world of Klipsch, that is

[dtel]

That's really funny you had me laughing. [Y]

Were only in it for the music, and it sure does that well and with ease. []

My wife loves it, she does not even want grill covers on any of it, she likes the big horn look apparently. You should see the garage and bedroom[:$]

Hey hey Hey........look at that list of equipment you have assembled, don't act all innocent you are obviously addicted also. [] [][Y]

[derrickdj1]

My wife loves it, she does not even want grill covers on any of it, she likes the big horn look apparently.

dtel we should all be that lucky[].

[Chris A]

I do have a center speaker - Klipsch KV-4..For these tests, I am running the K-Horns WITH my dual subs...The room is carpeted, 8' ceiling. The room itself sounds pretty good, pretty absorbent with the carpet and all the furniture,..I was playing around with toe-in for the phantom center because I just wanted to hear what it sounded like and, like I said, I think I prefer the center channel on.

...I got great imaging ...but only when my crossover was set to 120hz - anywhere below that and the image just falls apart...Acoustic treatments are in my plans, but I want to do some FR measurements first to see exactly where the problems are. I'm just now learning REW.

Try running a mono signal through just the Khorns, then find the "sweet spots" in the listening area. I'd set the fronts to "full range".

Then I'd put up some acoustic absorbent material over the subs and center/TV rack (like a large comforter on each side). Then make sure that the Khorn side wall nearest the couch has absorbent material up around the top hat, extending out at least 2 feet to absorb the early reflections off the midrange from that short section of the side wall. Then listen again on-axis: you are listening for a distinct sweet spot right on centerline that is good for perhaps a foot or two of lateral movement left or right while looking at your TV.

Then switch to stereo only (2.0 large/full range) and listen, then add the subs (large/full range 2.1). If that affects your imaging then you have a sub/Khorn interaction.

Then add the center at 80 Hz (small) only. Listen for speech intelligibility. Then add the surrounds and listen.

If you find out anything from this sequence of listening tests, it would be nice to know where you first begin to have problems, and what the symptoms are.

Chris

[dtel]

dtel we should all be that lucky.

Well I am pretty lucky really........................pictures from the Klipsch Hope Pilgrimage is also on that page with the pics, just go to the far left where is says albums, click and it's under Hope 2011

[psg]

Can't swing it all around 90 degrees with the KHorn in the lower-right corner moved to the upper-left corner on the 20 foot wall, can you?

[Chris A]

I believe that he's already done that and come back to the current configuration, IIRC.

Chris