Crossover Identity

[Deang]

When the B2 was released, some probably sent their Type Bs back to the factory for upgrading. Bob came up with this pretty good guess, and I'm inclined to agree with him.

[dbomberger]

The pair (77 Cornwalls) I recently purchased came with paperwork that indicates Klipsch supplied the owner with an upgrade kit (to "B-2" from "B") and printed instructions for the upgrade. The number 2 was scratched into the space after the "B" on the metal label which looks odd.  Never-the-less, I ordered new Crites crossovers which I still need to install, and am anxious to.  Have to wait till I get back to Arizona in a couple of months though.  I'm looking forward to an even better listening experience which part of me finds hard to imagine, but will anxiously await. I kind of like it that Klipsch at least used to (don't have current experience) work with customers so well.  I remember in the 80's, needing a new woofer for my Heresy's after a dog, or kid got to it. They just sent me one, no muss, no fuss.

Edited August 28, 2014 by dbomberger

[jimmytamp]

Hello, I'm hoping someone can help me out. Opened up my cornwalls circa 1981 and replaced the tweeters with Crites' CT125s all good. Now looking at the crossovers they do not seem to match any type B crossover picture that I can find even though they are identified as Type B on the crossover itself. I'm hoping someone can look at the attached photo and advise if the crossover has been modified in any way. Cheers

I had the same crossover (B2) in my pair of 1981-Cornwall. Get it replaced with new crossover from Bob.

Cheers,

Jimmy

[colterphoto1]

Or just replace the capacitors with correct values of a modern type for a low-cost option. Do ONE, and compare for a period of time. 

[Deang]

I just don't like that idea. I mean, I understand it, especially if someone is flat broke - but consider:

Most people will only do this once, so what is the point in half-assing it?

You can't make a signal better, you can only make it worse. The signal leaves the amp - that right there is as good as it gets. If the downstream components corrupt the signal, the network isn't going to fix it. Most of us know that, so we ask a lot of questions about preamplifiers and amplifiers - and spend a good deal of money on them too.

This full range signal then hits the network, where the signal is split up and gets sent to its respective driver. At this point we should quit using words like "crossover" and "network" - we should really be seeing these things for what they really are - filters.

So, we have simple filters that really don't do much except tie the drivers together, and then we have complex filters - which correct for all manner of things. The preferred approach is left to the individual.

The parts issue has become such a point of contention, for reasons that make no sense whatsoever. Build any piece of audio gear with cheap parts, and though it will be affordable and sound pretty decent - I think we're all smart enough to know that it won't sound as good as the higher priced stuff. Why?

Why is the expensive stuff "expensive"? Like I say on my site - sometimes it's brand related, but people forget that the brand became "established" largely due to an established pattern of using high quality materials and superior workmanship.

Capacitors, resistors and inductors aren't any different. The price point the part inhabits is mostly related to the materials and the amount of hassle that goes into making it. Some things seem overpriced, until you learn more about how they're made. Jupiter Flat Stacks are a good example, which are mostly made by hand. The advantage is that the film isn't put under any form of duress while being manufactured. Due to the amount of time and effort it takes to make these, combined with lackluster sales - Jupiter has decided to discontinue making them. A simply amazing product is going away, and in my world, it's like being told that BMW is going out of business.

There is a real lack of consistency when it comes to this topic. We have all of these different parts, and they're all really quite different in many ways, and yet we are told by some that a single measurement has determined that they are "the same" - and so sound the same. Seriously, in what other world does that happen in? Amplifiers? Preamps? Cars? No, only on message boards. Reality is this: things that use different materials, or use them in a different way, and are built differently, WILL perform differently - and they will also not sound the same.

Effective marketing requires that outlandish claims be made - you see it with everything. It's a shame that flooby dust and voodoo are such a big part of this hobby, but if you dig, the engineering behind the product is there. Try to remember that we are not average consumers. Average consumers don't have much interest in the engineering behind things, and the manufacturers of these various parts know this. I've spent countless hours on the phone running people down who will talk to me about their product, only to be told, "I would very much appreciate it if you kept that to yourself."

A 2uF Dayton capacitor costs $1.48. It is an entry level metallized capacitor. The film is so thin that if you touch it and try to handle it, it immediately begins to tear. They sound okay - much better with DC biasing applied.

A 2uF AudioCap PPT Theta costs $18.41. The Theta is a film and foil type. Construction is vastly different, which is reflected in the price. I don't want to hear how the price is what it is because it's an "audiophile" capacitor - because you will pay the same or more for a Vishay of the same type.

ESR measurements won't be all that different, they will both be in the milliohms.

Raise your hand if you think these two parts, which are made completely different - will sound the same?

So, which do you really want handling the filtering duties between your amplifier and your drivers?

When comparing capacitors of the same type, there are differences there as well. The Auricap XO and the Sonicap are both metallized capacitors. The Auricap XO is double wound (one of those things I'm not supposed to talk about). So, physically, they are significantly bigger than a Sonicap of the same value and voltage rating. Everything from the top down is different, including lead terminations. Think they sound the same?

I wish people would exhibit some common sense with this stuff. A $2 cap is a $2 cap for a reason.

Edited September 1, 2014 by DeanG

[Deang]

The best metallized capacitor for the money is the ClarityCap ESA series. I wouldn't use anything less unless I was using it in a charge coupled application (DC biasing applied).

Best sounding film and foil type is the Jupiter followed by the AudioCap PPT Theta. The Hovlands are back in a slightly different form, and I just ordered some for evaluation.

If you're only going to do this once, save up your money and do it right.

[Schu]

Dean... Jupiter is ceasing sales of the flat stacks?

 

Is there enough "in stock" to have something built for the foreseeable future?

[Deang]

Hi Michael, yeah, there is enough for that. I don't want to add any pressure, but I have no idea who else is buying these things for crossover work besides me. There aren't many vendors selling them, and my source has enough for about a dozen builds

 

ALCON, I was told that Jupiter is replacing them with an axial wound product that will deliver "the same sound", which I'm having a hard time buying into. With the flat stack, no stress is applied to what is basically paper ("reinforced beeswax paper dielectric") which I'm not convinced a winding machine can do. To keep ESR relatively low, a capacitor has to be wound relatively tight. I have no problem being left with only the Jensens for those who want these types of builds, the two brands sound more similar than disimilar, with the Jensens sounding just a smidge darker and it taking a bit more on the volume control to get the system to open up, which I'm sure is related to the Jensen's higher ESR and the possibility of some action due to the oil. I ended up using the Jupiters because I was having problems sourcing the Jensens, so I may be back to that. OTOH ...  

 

I just took delivery of some Musicaps. "Hovland" is not on the labels, and the distinctively bright yellow teflon wrapper has been replaced with a nice blue. The leads are different -- much thicker, and they've tinned the ends of the leads, which is kind of nice. The finely strandred silver coated copper was a bit of a pain to work with. These are not rebranded new old stock Hovlands -- they are back in production.

 

I don't have time right now to build a real set of crossovers with these, but I do have time to clip all of the parts together this weekend and just kind of give them a general listen while I'm building up orders. Back when I had Klipschorns, I preferred these over the PPT Thetas and the Jensens, and they were what I used in my Type As (a completely subjective/personal preference issue). I'm optimistically hopeful, because they cost about half of what the Jupiters do. I will certainly give Jupiter a shot with their new replacement product, but if it doesn't stomp these into the ground, they will be out. Jensens are always "in" -- it's just strictly a matter of whether I can get the values I need when I need them.

 

The cap on the far right is of course a Sonicap, which is the best metallized capacitor I happened to have on hand right now of the same value (2uF Musicap next to it). Even though the Sonicap has twice the voltage rating, it doesn't help it much in catching up in size or weight. Film and foils are monsters. I've attached the marketing/spec sheets for those are interested.

 

musicap-dsgn-sum.pdf

musicap-specs.pdf