Amp-shopping! (Powering a pair of F-20s) (Update: Adcom amp+pre bought!)

[chriswhotakesphotos]

Hi, everyone!

 

Not long ago, after much anticipation, I bought my first pair of Klipschs; a modest pair of Synergy F-20s. And if I've learned two things, it's that they like a good amp, and that they're a better subwoofer than my subwoofer.

 

So far, I've had two amps on them. One is a 50w no-name (branded as Audiosource, but the hardware is sold under numerous other brands), which sounds reasonable for what it is, and the other is a 100w Yamaha R-S201BL, which was the most disgusting thing I've heard in my life. So my main amp is the Audiosource.

 

Of course, I'd like to step up to a proper integrated amp, and I'm looking at a few from some actual brands (Onkyo, Pioneer, and Marantz) ranging from 35 to 75w. Even though I've been powering my speakers using 50w, I feel it's not a great benchmark to gauge how their 95db handles that much power, since I'm sure the distortion I hear at higher SPL is simply due to the budget electronics doing their job. It's not terrible (I've also used this amp for 89db speakers of a different brand), but I'm not sure if it's really a representation of what one /could/ have for 50 watts.

 

If I'm the type who likes to listen at obscene levels from time to time, how much power should I plan on having for my speakers? Thanks in advance!

 

Update:

After much delegation, I got a secondhand Adcom GFA-535 power amp and matching GTP-500 pre. Turned out to be a bit of an adventure; one phone call with the seller lead to me (and a friend, of course) driving an hour out to Delaware at 8PM the same night to demo everything. He ran them with a pair of Monitor Audio Golds, and I certainly liked what I heard, so it seemed like the way to go.

 

Performance is very pleasing on the F-20s. The GFA-535 is specced to do 60w per channel, but Stereophile's review says it's more like 80. Gone is the harshness that had been ordinary on this system before; this amp/preamp pair sound very smooth and detailed together, and seem like a great fit for the Klipschs. Things still sound a bit treble-heavy, but I could listen for much longer (and louder, and cleaner) before my ears had enough of it. I still expect that will smooth out much better in time, since the speakers aren't even close to finishing their 100+ hour break-in window.

 

Even still, I did a fair bit of listening at medium to quite-loud volumes and was happy with it all. Some songs came out of my old equipment sounding too harsh to enjoy, yet with the new gear, I can turn them up to much delight. I tested with a decent spread of music (jazz, pop, vocal, instrumental, p-funk, rock, dubstep) and it all sounded great. The clipping protection/indicator is also a great feature; I only got it to come on once, but that was due to turning the bass up considerably for a dubstep tune. With tone controls off, it didn't indicate clipping once.

 

I definitely owe a lot of thanks to everyone who chimed in to help. I got tremendous insight and spent much less than I thought I'd need to, for more equipment than I thought I'd get. I'm glad I asked!

Edited May 9, 2015 by chriswhotakesphotos

[mustang guy]

The Yamaha was a receiver, not an amp. Also, the 100WPC rating is at 1kHz, not 20Hz-20kHz as it should be measured. Realistically, you would only be pumping 45watts or so into each speaker with no overhead power at all. I would be buying something that had a 120 watt per channel at the entire 20Hz-20,000Hz bandwidth.

 

If you are looking into an integrated amp, you will also need to buy a preprocessor of some sort. You can use your phone as a pre-processor for example. An integrated amp is just an amplifier with adjustments for volume, treble, etc, etc...

Edited May 4, 2015 by mustang guy

[chriswhotakesphotos]

Ah, thanks for the information! 

 

What I'm really intending to hone in on, and perhaps you can help me with the terminology, is something that'll accept line-level sources and power the speakers, and do little else. I've found that searching for integrated amps gets me closer to that than anything else, so that's where I picked up the term. Of course, it would be ideal to micromanage into several components, but on my youthful budget, integrating into one unit sounds like the best way to go. It might be nice to get something that can be bridged so I can get a second one later on to use as makeshift monoblocks, but that's less of a priority than simply having a good amp to begin with. 

[derrickdj1]

List a buget and people that like to spend your money will be along shortly.   Welcome to the forum Chris.

[willland]

List a buget and people that like to spend your money will be along shortly.   Welcome to the forum Chris.

 

Yes Chris, welcome to the forum.

 

A budget would help alot.

Mid level($400.00 to $700.00) integrated amps from Onkyo,Yamaha, NAD, Cambridge Audio all would be a good start.

 

By the way, where about are you located?

 

Bill

Edited May 4, 2015 by willland

[chriswhotakesphotos]

Ah, thank you for the kind welcomes, everybody!

 

I'd hope not to spend too much more than $400 for the time being, but I know myself to be flexible (and impulsive!) if faced with an usually good deal. I've already looked at the Yamaha A-S301BL, Pioneer A-20, Onkyo A-9050, and Marantz PM5004, and might make a move on any of them. I even looked at vintage amps (the Marantz 1060B in particular, since it can sell quite cheaply), though I'm not sure how well I'll do maintaining one when it inevitably becomes necessary.

 

I like the idea of the Marantz the most, though at 35w, I'm not sure if it would be able to play as loudly as I'd like (The Pioneer is also close to this figure). The Onkyo is more powerful at 75w, but reviewers say it's not a very warm-sounding amp, which is of particular concern for horn-loaded speakers. The Yamaha also seems like it should be well-rounded, but I feel a bit jaded after my experience with the last one I'd bought. Of course, that was also a more consumer-oriented receiver, so it's probably more my fault for not vetting the purchase well enough.

 

Thanks for jumping in to help! And I'm from New Jersey, not far from Philadelphia. And those are some very enviable setups everybody has!

Edited May 4, 2015 by chriswhotakesphotos

[derrickdj1]

If you have a BB, see if they have any open box or discontinued integrated amps in your price range.  Also, there are some good avr's that should do just as good a job.  Some people like less in the signal chain but, there are a lot of us on the 2 ch forum that use an avr.  There may be some benefit in the much higher price range of separtes (amp/processor) or high level integrated amps.

[willland]

The Onkyo is more powerful at 75w, but reviewers say it's not a very warm-sounding amp

 

Every Onkyo AVR, stereo receiver, and integrated amp that I have owned has been about as neutral sounding as they come, which I prefer 95% of the time.

 

If you can get your hands on a used or refurbished NAD C356BEE or 355BEE for near your budget, then maybe add that to your list.

 

 

Bill

[joshnich]

The newish Yamaha integrated amps look very interesting - at least to me!

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/amps/a-s500/?mode=model

[chriswhotakesphotos]

Open box at Best Buy is a great idea, Derrick. I hadn't even considered it! If I'd only thought to post here last week; I was at Best Buy on Friday to get a Pebble watch. (Open-box, ironically.)

 

Bill, would you say that NAD amps are good across the board? I'm reading a lot of favorable reviews that praise their musicality, which is obviously ideal, and I'm finding at least a few of them priced very comfortably for me. Soft-clipping is also a nice feature, given how I intend to listen from time to time. Do you think 40-50w will be good?

 

I might also give chance to Yamaha again, since it seems I'd just bought a product for the wrong market last time. I didn't think there'd be this many promising options; thanks for all the help!

[joshnich]

In your price range you should look at integrateds that also include a DAC. You may not be using a computer for a source but you may at some time. This one from yamaha includes a digital in so that when you need it in the future you are ready to go.

http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/hifi-components/amps/a-s501/?mode=model

[willland]

Bill, would you say that NAD amps are good across the board? I'm reading a lot of favorable reviews that praise their musicality, which is obviously ideal, and I'm finding at least a few of them priced very comfortably for me. Soft-clipping is also a nice feature, given how I intend to listen from time to time. Do you think 40-50w will be good?

 

I have been very pleased with every piece of NAD gear I have owned, which if I can recall is about seven pieces.

 

I think 40 to 50w is plenty as long as you are not trying to fill a concert hall at crazy loud volumes.

 

This CA would be a good one also.  I have a previous generation CA 640A V2 which sounds great.

 

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/camb651abl/cambridge-audio-azur-651a-premium-integrated-amplifier-black/1.html

 

I might also give chance to Yamaha again

 

I love my Yamaha A-S1000 integrated amp.  Not lacking at all with my RB-75's.

 

How close are you to this?

 

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/4934925980.html

 

 

 

 

http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/ele/4936521124.html

 

 

 

Bill

[chriswhotakesphotos]

A follow-up test with my 50w seems to confirm that. As loud as could be and it barely got warm! These speakers are a delight, and they're not even properly powered yet. Or broken in.

That Cambridge looks quite temping; thanks a bunch for finding it! I just might have to contact the seller. It's about an hour from me, which would definitely be worth the adventure. (And cheaper than having an amp shipped!)

If that falls through, I do really like the look of the NAD amps. Between the tempting prices and all the excellent testimony I'm hearing, they seem like a good idea.

Josh, do you think it would be cumbersome to add a separate DAC at a later point? I'm not against the idea, but since I already use a separate pair for my computer (Definitive Techs, which is where my cheap 50w amp normally lives) with a cheap DAC, I might not need it right away.

[joshnich]

Some people say that all DACs are pretty much the same. Others not so much!  If you have a DAC that you are happy with then find the integrated that you like at the best price you can find!

 

Josh

[Jay L]

If you like it loud I suggest you look for 125-200 Watt amplifier. Integrated amplifiers don't usually come in flavors above 100W/ch. I would look for a used pre-amp, and amplifier combo. Don't overlook pro amps for a score of cheap power!

[willland]

If you like it loud I suggest you look for 125-200 Watt amplifier. Integrated amplifiers don't usually come in flavors above 100W/ch.

 

Jay, as true as that is, many a quality 100w/ch integrated will equal or best many a 125w/ch + separate amp.  My 90w/ch Yamaha A-S1000 sounds about as powerful as most of the near 30 amps I have owned over the last 8 years.

 

I would look for a used pre-amp, and amplifier combo.

 

With that said, not a bad idea.

 

Bill

[mustang guy]

Look into the Behringer Europower EPQ450. It will kick your speakers into a higher gear. You will need to get some interconnects made up for the speakers, and for now you can just plug your cell phone in as an input source. You will need to make up a cord for that too. About $250.

Edited May 5, 2015 by mustang guy

[mustang guy]

To the speakers:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/speakon-hpc-speaker-connectors/1510?N=20128+4294967118+4294966792+4294966801&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1

 

To the iphone or whatever:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/xlr-connectors/1512?N=18742+4294967118+4294964210+4294966801+4294966794+14058&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&PortalID=1

 

and:

 

http://www.parts-express.com/cat/35-mm-mini-connectors/1504?N=18737+4294967118+4294963990+4294965037&Ne=10166&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&Ns=P_BestPrice%7C0&PortalID=1

 

You could also use this: 

 

http://www.parts-express.com/search.aspx?N=4294967118+4294965121+4294964200&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bendeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_PortalID%22%2C%221%22%29+and+endeca%3Amatches%28.%2C%22P_Searchable%22%2C%221%22%29%5D&Ns=P_BestPrice%7C0&Ntt=3.5*+to*+rca*&PortalID=1

 

and this: 

 

http://www.parts-express.com/xlr-male-to-rca-female-adapter--240-438

 

for connecting the iphone or whatever to the pro amp mentioned above.

Edited May 5, 2015 by mustang guy

[The History Kid]

FWIW - Entry level Yamaha amplifiers and receivers will not sound like those further up in the line. The RX-V (pre 2012), and HTR lines as well as the R-S201 (and 301 from what I've heard) all fall into that entry level category. Since Best Buy is your go to, see if they have any RX-A / Aventege lines of Yamaha receivers, and add it to your list to compare.

[willland]

FWIW - Entry level Yamaha amplifiers and receivers will not sound like those further up in the line. The RX-V (pre 2012), and HTR lines as well as the R-S201 (and 301 from what I've heard) all fall into that entry level category. Since Best Buy is your go to, see if they have any RX-A / Aventege lines of Yamaha receivers, and add it to your list to compare.

 

Michael,

 

I don't think Chris is looking for an AVR.  He mentioned 2-channel setup.

 

Bill