Guest Steven1963 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I am getting ready to work on these Frazier X-15's and while I have a baseline for what I want to do, I'm not sure how to treat the cabinets. That's where you guys come in. I'd really appreciate some input as to what you think would look the best: veneer, paint, or what? I'm definitely moving the mid-horn into the blank space above the woofer and keeping the lens. Probably going to either move the network inside the box OR have one designed by either Al or Dean and have it displayed on top in an elegant fashion. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Tweeter location? help! Someone with time alignment experience? Cost is essentially no object. I want what is going to present the best. If they look amazing, I'll keep them. Because frankly, they sound amazing. If I don't like the end result, I'll sell them. YOUR JOB IS TO HELP ME KEEP THEM! Should you choose to accept this mission, I'll take plenty of pics during the process and post them here on the forums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I am getting ready to work on these Frazier X-15's and while I have a baseline for what I want to do, I'm not sure how to treat the cabinets. That's where you guys come in. I'd really appreciate some input as to what you think would look the best: veneer, paint, or what? I'm definitely moving the mid-horn into the blank space above the woofer and keeping the lens. Probably going to either move the network inside the box OR have one designed by either Al or Dean and have it displayed on top in an elegant fashion. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Tweeter location? help! Someone with time alignment experience? Cost is essentially no object. I want what is going to present the best. If they look amazing, I'll keep them. Because frankly, they sound amazing. If I don't like the end result, I'll sell them. YOUR JOB IS TO HELP ME KEEP THEM! Should you choose to accept this mission, I'll take plenty of pics during the process and post them here on the forums. Sorry, very few SO's would be willing to have those in the house. I am partial to the Theater Gray with the "Altec" or "Frazier" emblems on the sides. If you want acceptance, you will need to cover the whole thing with a large box and grill, similar to the Altec model 19 or Frazier model 11. No way around it with that front horn on the woofer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) I'm definitely moving the mid-horn into the blank space above the woofer and keeping the lens....Tweeter location? help! Someone with time alignment experience? I'd recommend placing a tweeter on top. Your choice of tweeter, but it would help if you knew the polar dispersion of the midrange horn/lens horizontally and vertically. My guess is that you're going to have to look at some old JBL literature on their old horn lens products to see what the typical horizontal and vertical coverage angles are for their mid horns and lenses of approximately the size and relative dimensions of the lens that you already have, i.e., the Spanish company-produced products. If in doubt, I'd recommend looking at a Beyma CP25 (a "baby cheek" design) due to the value and good coverage of that design, and set the tweeter on top of the cabinet in a small L-shaped baffle so that you can move the tweeter forward and backward as necessary. To time align, play a sine wave at the center of the crossover frequency through the loudspeaker (i.e., the midrange and tweeter are playing at the crossover point) that you choose and move the tweeter forward and backward until the sound coalesces and sounds like a single point source driver/horn. Then you'll be time aligned. Since I don't know the frequency response of your mid horn driver (whichever midrange compression driver that you ultimately choose to use) mounted on the mid horn/lens assembly, I'd recommend doing a frequency up-sweep using REW and either a calibration microphone, or perhaps as simple as the microphone in your laptop/computer. This will give you some idea of the FR and phase of the mid horn/lens/driver assembly installed inside the cabinet with lens sticking out of the front, and where to cross over. The Beyma tweeter is good down to 1.6 kHz crossover frequency (using steep-slope crossover filters in the crossover). My guess is that you'll be looking at a crossover point in the range of 2-8 kHz (center frequency). The easiest way to do this is to use an active digital crossover of your choice/desired price point. A miniDSP is an option but will require the most technical knowledge to dial everything in. A Behringer DCX2496LE is almost as inexpensive and is easier to handle. Here are the PEQs for a Beyma CP25 tweeter that I used in my center Belle before moving on to a JuBelle configuration, here crossing over at 2.5 kHz: Out3: CHANNEL EQ1,Type: PEQ, f: 12.4KHz, Q: 3, Gain: -11dB Out3: CHANNEL EQ2,Type: PEQ, f: 5.0KHz, Q: 0.7, Gain: -8dB Out3: HIPASS XOVER, Type: Linkwitz 24 dB, f: 2.5KHz, Pol: norm Out3: Level: +3.0dB, Polarity: Normal If you're stuck on using a passive crossover in the final configuration, the low cost Behringer unit can be bought and then later sold once you've got the passive crossover nailed down...or you can keep the Behringer crossover as a test/design unit for the next time that you decide to redesign a loudspeaker. EDIT: I noticed that you already have baby cheek tweeters, probably a JBL design, which is as good as or better than the Beyma, but is now discontinued. These are probably good choices to stay with until you get some measurements from your mid horn/lens/compression drivers. Chris Edited June 25, 2015 by Chris A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 If cost is no object, and you want these to look as best as possible, I would suggest you employ professionals to do the work unless your own skills are at that level. I think these can be made to look amazing if you to do everything that needs to be done at perfectionist levels. The bass horn has curves so I would think veneer would not work there. Paint those areas black (after smoothing out the surfaces) and apply a nice veneer everywhere else that you can. No matter how nice the crossovers look, they should be hidden (along with all wires) -- to look the best, they should look like a piece of fine furniture which means no crossovers showing. That also means ditch the large logos on the sides. The lens needs to be painted -- I would suggest black but there could also be other nice colors to choose from -- consider getting them painted at an automotive paint shop. Cover up the metal braces, you may need to build a wooden box around them and either paint the same black as the bass horn or apply the same veneer over them. I think black paint with lighter colored wood veneer would make these things look outstanding. Where you can't apply the veneer, paint black and make sure all pitted surfaces are filled and smoothed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J M O N Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 For inspiration (and ideas), take a look at what this guy did with KPT-904s. https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/150227-kpt-904s/page-11#entry1881804 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 If you are keeping the mid-range lens, will it actually fit in the top space on the cabinet without cutting off the upper couple of port tube? You will need to recover the cabinet volume some place. I almost think flipping the cabinet and dropping the mid-range down (swapped with tweeter and time aligned with mid if wanted) would allow a nice upper cabinet to be built for the horns without loosing volume. The front could then be rounded like the Vox Olympian or similar, keeping everything in-tact. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/livingvoice6/1.html Crossover will be a dilemma. Trying for time alignment of the drivers will at minimum be facilitated by an electronic crossover. Doing a passive network that will sound really good will be costly (tweak, new parts, tweak, listen) due to requiring a bunch of parts that may never get used in the end result. I have a drawer full of caps, resistors, and coils. If you like to tweak then maybe you will consider it fun.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Steven1963 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I am thinking of having them professionaly finished. And I was thinking along the lines of having the curves of the base horn painted flat black. The lenses could be any color of my choosing and the veneer something sophisticated. Could be a great set of speakers, for sure! I wrote to the lens manufacturer and they sent me back a .pdf on it. Lots of graphs and charts from tests they ran during development I'm sure. It's too big to attach here though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenTacey Posted June 27, 2015 Share Posted June 27, 2015 First learn to work with glues and setting laminates and verneers same as in cabinetry I am professtional but have not done that work in 35 years. It is like riding a bicycle. I cost is no object I'd look for a reasonable cabinet maker. One might look at it and be very reasonable. That is what I would do. There are shops that have a huge variety of both. I like a mixture of wood and formica maybe some marble? Lots of possibilities that will be beautiful! Maybe call a few places tell them your needs and display finished product here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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