KLF 30 Bi Amp

[tangero]

Can the KLF 30s be bi-amped for 2 channel stereo?

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HH Scott vintage tube system with 122 preamp,LT110 tuner, pair 240 monoblocks, JVC turntable, Klipsch Heresy I speakers, Harman Kardon dual CD, HK DVD, Klipsch Belles, McIntosh MC30s, McIntosh C20 preamp

[lynnm]

Yes

You can remove the straps between the LF and HF connectors and then use separate amps to power the LF and HF sections.

IF done correctly biamping does have some sonic benefit.

Doing so requires the use of a crossover and a pair of gain matched amps. Many would disagree with me but as far as I am concerned you would be incurring too much cost and adding too much complexity for too little benefit. The question then becomes whether the improvements justify the cost.

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It is meet to recall that the Great Green Heron rarely flies upside down in the moonlight - (Foo Ling ca.1900)

[tangero]

Thanks. Who makes a good crossover? If I keep my Belles I will have the same problem although there is some type of crossover installed by Klipsch during a rework I need to investigate it. The Belles are just too wide for narrow living room and I thought the KLF30s would be the next best thing. I intended to power the lows with a Scott LK150 tube amp and the highs with a pair of McIntosh MC30s and a Mc C20 preamp.

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HH Scott vintage tube system with 122 preamp,LT110 tuner, pair 240 monoblocks, JVC turntable, Klipsch Heresy I speakers, Harman Kardon dual CD, HK DVD, Klipsch Belles, McIntosh MC30s, McIntosh C20 preamp

[mobile homeless]

Tangero, to be honest, you would receive an amazing upgrade that would surpass biamping by just upgrading your sources. That "HK Dual CD", "HK DVD", and "JVC TT" are actually the bottleneck in my opinion. Bringing your source components up to the level of your speakers would bring amazing results. I personally would also consider more refined amplification for the mids and highs.

kh

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Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point

CD Player Rega Planet

Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified

Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks

Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect

Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover

Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s>

[tangero]

mobile homeless, I follow your replys and value your opinion. In late Sept I intend to upgrade to a Belle Vista Blue Note TT and Shanling CD - a reward for celebrating my 43rd birthday last week by filing for divorce. Now, about the amps for the mids and highs: I thought the Mc30s were supposed to be excellent? Oh, my this is one steep learning curve I'm on! BTH, please give me your opinion on the Belles vs the KLH30. I hooked the Belles up but the CD sounded so bad I couldn't stand it and moved them off to the side. They are also just too wide for for 9 ft wide living room and KLF3s were recommended instead. I was thinking of just moving the Belles to a storage room for the day when I have a real house... Thank You

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HH Scott vintage tube system with 122 preamp,LT110 tuner, pair 240 monoblocks, JVC turntable, Klipsch Heresy I speakers, Harman Kardon dual CD, HK DVD, Klipsch Belles, McIntosh MC30s, McIntosh C20 preamp

[v3spitfire]

Bi amping.

I'm considering the purchase of the RF7 or RF5. I was planning to bi amp them via Mdeneen's method of splitting the output on the preamp. I have 2 adcom power amps, of equal wattage (100x2 and 100x5). There is no gain control on these amps, but since the are similar (close to identical), would this be needed? The Klipsch crossovers are 2500 (or 2200). Is this simply running 100 watts to 2500+ and 100 watts to 2500 and under. Does this make any sonic sense, or does the sound above 2200 - 2500 require so little power that I would gain nothing. Also, would it be better to biamp them with 4 of the 5 channels on the same amp to insure identicality.

The salesman said to biwire them, and that would make the amp "work harder" by lowering the impedence to 4ohms. Any thoughts on which is better. This concept is new to me, but with identical amps, though it might make sense. Thanks,

Del

[Deang]

Uh, lets work backwards on this one:

I have no idea what your salesman is talking about. Biwiring will NOT make the amp work harder, or change impedance. The load to the amp will be the same. You would need a hell of alot of wire to effect what the amp is seeing.

Biwiring mearly allows the drivers to be fed through their respective crossover implements. Also, the electrical variations particular to the bass frequencies, and the high frequencies, are contained to each cable. Advantages here are only typically heard with better than decent front end gear, or at higher SPL's -- where there is a lessoning degree of grain.

I'm not exactly clear on what you are asking regarding the 5 channel amp. To use the amp, you have to put a load on all 5 amplifier sections in the amp while the amp is on, or risk damage to the unused channels. No matter how you try to use these two amps in a biamping configuraton (whether vertically or horizontally), you are going to leave some of the outputs without load.

If you can stand to part with the 5 channel amp, you should. Simply biwire with the 2-channel Adcom, and sell the 5-channel amp and get yourself a nice tubed preamp. 100 watts of Adcom and a tube preamp would certainly sound better than some unstable biamping configuration with the two Adcoms. Besides, 100 watts will be plenty of power for either the RF5's or the RF7's -- unless you have a VERY large listening room.

[v3spitfire]

Dean, Thank you. This clears a lot up. I will biwire the 2channel, probably get the RF7s to be safe on SPL, as the room is roughly 25x30. I'm new to this forum, and it is really nice to get answers from those who know there stuff. Incidently, would you recommend the RF7's? THey sound much more musical than my older heresey IIs. Thanks again

I originally was thinking of bi amping using the 4 of the 5 channels, then using the 5th for the center, and using the 2 channels on the rear. But, as 90% of my listening is in 2 channel stereo anyway... I didn't realize I had to have a load on each channel, somewhat concerning as I currently have it hooked up for 5.1, but am usually only using the front 2 channels - maybe setting myself up for problems it sounds like.

[Deang]

Ah...this changes EVERYTHING.

You did not tell us that you had a multichannel setup!

I should have clarified my use of the word "load". I was only concerned that you would have an amp running, without a speaker attached to each output on the amps. If you actually have speakers for each speaker terminal (outputs) on the back of the amps -- then you can be imaginative with your use of the amps.

Before I render an opinion however, why don't you tell me the exact model numbers of your Adcoms -- so I can do a little homework.

Now, about the RF7's. Yes, they are a tremendous value, and I certainly enjoy mine. I also just aquired some Heresies, and I find both the RF7's and the Heresies very musical speakers. I do believe the RF7's are able to generate more output without pinching up (compression in the high frequencies), and certainly can deliver more bass impact and dynamics.

If you can afford them, the RF7's are a major leap forward over the RF5's.

Some RF7's in the front, and your Heresies in the rear -- would sound very good.

What are you using for center and rear channels now?

[v3spitfire]

Thank you,

I have an adcom GFA 7400. It has 5X100. I also have an older (1991) adcom GFA 545 (2X100). I'm using a Harman Kardon Signature 2.0 5.1 processor/preamp. I was running infinity's in the fronts and rears and a jbl center. I just moved and have a much larger room now just measured, 28x35 total, but the music section is really 22x25. I would like to eliminate the infinity's all together, use the Rf7s front, heresy's rear like you suggest (should I hang them). The HK processor does have a dts 4ch and something similar to 4ch stereo that uses the rears nicely for music.

I'm assuming I'll need to replace the JBL with one of the klipsch centers- but may need to wait if I get the RF7's due to budget constraints. I'm assuming the JBL won't keep up with the RF7, as its much smaller and less efficient. I was going to try it though before replacing it. It will be ok for awhile, as most of my time is with music anyway.

If possible, I was thinking of bi amping the Rf7s with 4 channels of the gfa 7400, running the center with the 5th channel, running the rear heresey's with the 545. I was going to split the front outputs on the processor with a y cord to do the bi amping from the 7400 since the gain would be the same on that amp. (I'm currently doing this now, to run speakers in another part of the room, so it does work). So, would 100 watts go to the horn and another 100 watts to the woofers?

Thanks again for your help with this. Do you work at an audio store?

Del

[mobile homeless]

"Thanks again for your help with this. Do you work at an audio store??

Heh...Dean, your're moving up in the world! Hell, I'd buy something from you at this stage!

kh

[Deang]

"Do you work at an audio store??"

I don't know Kelly, but I think I've just been insulted.

The original Adcoms from the late 80's and early 90's utilized bipolar devices. These transistors gave great bottom end slam and control, but tended to be a little bright, and somewhat grainy through the treble region. The problem was mostly noticeable with speakers that tended towards a somewhat forward signature. Your 545 uses bipolar devices.

The newer Adcoms, such as your 5-channel offering, utilize MOSFETS. These devices typically have a warmer signature. I lived with an Adcom 555 for some time, and have also owned several amps utilizing MOSFETS (such as the B&K 4420). I know from experience that MOSFET amps are much warmer through the treble than amps utilizing bipolar devices. This of course is a generality, based on my limited experience with both, at similiar pricepoints.

An interesting configuration for you, might be to wire the 545's to the woofers of the RF7's, and then taking two channels from the 5400 -- wire up the horns. This will be done in the horizontal biamping configuraton. Left channel of the 545 to the left channel woofers, and right channel of the 545 to the right channel woofers. Then again -- left channel from one of the amps in the 5400 to the left channel horn, and right channel from the 5400 to the right channel horn. Use the remaining three channels to do the JBL center and two rear Heresies.

Now, some irregularities come into play here. When you biamp, you are splitting the total speaker load. The nominal impedance of any given speaker is based on the drivers being driven together. Creating separate loads from each driver(s), to each amp -- will create different loads to each amp. For example: instead of nominal impedance being 8 ohms -- it may now be something like 6 ohms for the woofers, and 10 ohms for the tweeters. So, the amp/channels driving the bottom will have more than a 100 watts, and the the amp/channels driving the top will be less (maybe something like 50-60 wpc). Since the woofers generally require more power, and the tweeters less -- this really nothing to get to excited about, but I wanted you know.

I would not use a Y connector. Go to www.caryaudio.com and email them. Tell them you want some Y interconnects. Give them the length and ask for the price. These cables are made to order, and are configured and soldered properly for what you are doing.

[v3spitfire]

no insult intended. I can see what you're saying though, based on the advice I got from our local audio store...Thanx

[mobile homeless]

I didnt take that as an insult, so you shouldnt have either, Dean! heh.... Hell, it used to be a positive to work there as you got the best deals and the first exposure to the new good stuff. Ole Danocaster works at a Hi-Fi hut as well.

What happen to the great Dean sense of the absurd? You now know more than most audio store employees!

kh

[Deang]

Actually, I was kidding about the insult bit, but some reason, my didn't show up at the end of the line of the initial post.

Kelly, review my post above -- I'm sure you'll have some input. Make sure I got it right as well. I'm sure you will have something to say about undue complexity, and the advantages of keeping things as simple as possible.

[v3spitfire]

Actually, if I could have any career, it would be in a real audio store. Problem is, they've dissapeared in fort wayne, IN - great margins in theatre in a box systems apparently.... I know its getting bad when all the equipments on the shelf, but all the descent stuff is not connected to anything... This one has B&K and some other good names, but they make it sound like you're really putting them out to have them hook it up... And, I don't know near enough about the technical stuff to know when they're just talking to fill space.

[v3spitfire]

This is a great help to me. This may also explain why I thought my heresy's sounded a little harsh at high levels on the 545, and why in the store (where the hooked the RF7s to the 7400, I didn't get this effect. I'm going to do what you suggest. The education on the ohms is also helpful. Once I acquire and try this, I will again let you know the result. My hope is that with the Rf7s and extra wattage that if I reconfigure and use the whole room (if the wife allows it...) I'll have plenty of power.

thanks again