Manuel Delaflor Posted September 6, 2002 Share Posted September 6, 2002 Yesterday I witnessed what all the buzz about Tube amplifiers is, I went to the only Hi-End Manufacturer in my country and fall in love with his equipments. I spent almost three hours listening and talking with the owner and designer, Julian Margules. Margules Audio The equipment I listened was the lovely U280-SC amplifier and SF220 preamplifier, the ACRH-1 Hybrid Integrated, the "black box" ADE-24, and their Orpheus speakers. First a bit of history. I have Heritage Heresy speakers, the first model with the same drivers for mids and highs than the Klipschorns, and I drive them with an old SS Technics pure class A amplifier. Now, I certainly love my gear, but yesterday I found that his non horn speakers can sound as great as my old horns both in micro and macro-dynamics! Of course this fact leave wondering why. His answer: The amplifiers. The Tubes and their "magic". He also have a fairly good SS Harman Kardon amplifier in order to make quick comparisons. After listening to the U280-SC for a while he connected the HK and all the magic was gone! The sound-stage was greatly reduced, the intimacy of the violins and human voices was gone, generally speaking the sound was less pleasant and in particular the bass of the contrabass and the cello was a complete mess, I couldn't hear the detailed resonance of the intruments anymore. It was a revelation. Then he connected another amplifier, this time his Hybrid design the ACRH-1 and the magic came back (this integrated uses tube preamplifiers and SS amplifiers), the detail this gear is able to draw is comparable to the one I listened from the U280-SC, far away from the ugly sound of the pure SS HK, and its price is really really good comparing it to the price of the U280-SC and the SF220 (no wonder why this will be my next acquisition). Yesterday I fall in love. Im convinced now. No matter how well the SS's can measure, no matter how convincing is the speech behind them (about the "accuracy" or whatever else comes to your minds), the sound they can make is far away from the richness and completeness of Tube amplifiers. If you are an SS lover don't believe me. Try for yourself. You might be surprised by what you find. Oh, I almost forgot. If you are one of the guys who feels that CD sound is awful compared to the vinyl, you need to listen again, this time using the Margules ADE-24. This little box really do miracles to the cold sound of CD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Manuel---Hardly a complete enough survey to make sweeping generalizations. Im my experience there are good and bad amps both tube and SS. Best amps I've ever owned are my old tube Fisher SA-100s. Best amp I've ever heard is the DIY TriPath digital amp. As for SETs, well they fail to impress me and the worst amps I EVER heard were a pair of AudioNote dual 300B monos, highly regarded by some but they make my VOTs sound like AR3s with blown tweeters. That Korneff 45 amp fails to impress too, it's good but not that good. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 geez Tom, what a buzz killer. Would you have defended tubes if he was waxing enthusiastic about SS amps, would you have told him it wasn't a good cross sample? There is magic there, in tubes, and once you find it, well a lifetime of listening to SS amps (which the vast majority of us have) pales in comparison. SS amps sound steely and two dimensional compared to a good tube. Yeah, the vocabulary is wrong, there is no canonical definition for 'steely', but that's the closest in English that I can come to describing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 What do you think of this article? http://www.americanheritage.com/it/index.shtml When double-blind listening experiments are performed, any perceived differences between well-designed tube equipmentequipment that measures well in testand modern transistor amplifiers can be shown to be unverifiable, if an experiment is run with enough trials to be statistically valid. From a scientific standpoint, if the amplifiers specifications match, no audible differences should exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Randy---I'm not one to criticize a person's preferences and I certainly believe that Manuel and you have found great sound. But I do try to avoid wide generalizations about tubes and SS, that's all. I use both myself in my systems, I like tubes too. But there ARE bad tube amps afterall. And I think there are some very good SS ones. I recommend to everyone that they hear a TriPath, an amazing amp. Many tube and SET fans who've heard my pal Kurt's TriPath have been floored by the thing including most of the people at a BottleHead meeting here in Chicago, that's a tough crowd for a SS amp. And there are many tube-lovers in our horn club but most think highly of the TriPath. It's hard to hear everything out there Randy, is it not? Sometimes one may hear stuff that excedes expectations or opens new avenues, the TriPath has done that for some folks. And those little Monarchy class A amps sound very good with horn speakers too. And Mike Baker's QSC powered JBLs were making some very good sounds at Lima and not only in my opinion. But again I'm not saying that you and Manuel haven't found magic, no, I'd never say that, I believe you have. By the way, I like the way you defy the Cult of Personality on that other thing, you know. www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triode Pete Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 A digital amp that sounds good with horns???? That's scary! A buddy in my audio club has a very expensive, all digital TacT system with his Magnepan's. I listened to it; it was like "fingernails on a chalkboard"!!! Couldn't wait to get outta there! I thought to myself, the only thing worse would to mate these digital components to my K-horns! The president of my audio club has the same speakers as the guy with the TacT digital crap but he's using an older AR tube amp with a BAT tube pre-amp. Wow, nite & day difference...musical, you can listen to for hours. Not as dynamic & lifelike as horns, but very, very nice. Unless you like digititus, I would stay away from digital amps and anything digital with horns. Also, IMHO, there are lot more bad SS amps then tube amps, when mated with efficient horns!!! If you mate amps with inefficient speakers, the solid state designs usually fare better than tube designs. As always, have fun & enjoy, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Tom does get a bit persnickety when someone dismisses solid state, mainly since he was running that ole Yamaha AV box into them there horns! heh... Seriously though, I think a LOT of the misunderstanding here happens to do with the way people listen to music and what they prefer sonics wise. Also, the music they listen to plays a huge factor when combined with the above aspect. I have had this debate with Tom before and I think we have very different listening habits and tastes as well as differing priorities. Tom like horns. Period. Yeah, he might pay some lip service to an electrostatic but basically, it's HORNS or bust. I think there are other good sounding speakers out there, especially in the monitor catagory. I want to delve deeper into horns as well and ole Tom and I have discussed it several times, but I still value a fine dynamic speaker for its strengths. I love my ProAcs for what they do. It's a total different presentation. But I see where Tom is coming from. But Tom, you have to admit, you almost rule out ALL non horn speakers across the board which can be as problematic as what you are acusing Manuel of doing. Also, there are some better sounding solid state amps than others, and some that can sound quite good. I just dont find solid state and horns to be my cup of tea and didnt even like horns in general until I heard them on quality tube gear. I still think horns are without a doubt the most dynamic speakers I have heard. But mediocre solid state (which there are A LOT more of) can really be painful and unmusical via horns. I think Tom can overlook some of the faults in search of the dynamics. I have a problem and these same faults are glaring to me. As for the DIY TRipath amp, a buddy is sending one down here in the next few months for a sampling. For those that dont know, this is a VERY different type amplifier that is DIGITAL and VERY compact (depending on how it's built). There are some serious problems it has to overcome, but some people have been very taken with the sound. I remain a bit skeptical, but would like to hear one. kh Phono Linn Sondek LP-12 Valhalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover Links system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 09-07-2002 at 03:50 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Pete---Well the TacT ain't the TriPath. I heard the TacT stuff too but it was in a rig with crummy speakers, I've no idea how good it could sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Mobile---A very reasonable and well thought post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorv Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Tom, was that a TriPath that was hooked up to the VOT's in Chicago? BTW, did you listen to the battery powered Final's upstairs? Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 7, 2002 Author Share Posted September 7, 2002 Tom. I think I understand you a bit now. You are a contrarian. Nope, Im not trying to put you a sticker. I want to explain why I feel this way. On the HTF there were a discussion around Klipsch speakers and every Horn lover jumped on the thread. I was there and of course you were there. Right at the end in that thread I said something about Klipsch Horns and you replied that, well, you love Horns, but certainly not Klipsch's ones. Then the next reply I got from you is in this thread, when you simply state that what I said was somehow wrong. Don't misunderstand me. I know what you tried to say and I think it was ok to say it. I didn't tried, but apparently I was doing it, to say that every Tube amplifier is ipso facto "better" than any SS. What I said and I mantain is that the Margules Tube amplifiers I listened to are better than ANY SS I have listened in my life (and I have listened some fine amplifiers, like Bryston's or Krell's). There is something musical, euphonic, tuneful if you want, in the Margules gear which I presume is also there in other Tube amplifiers. Something that is simply not there in any SS I have listened to. A musical refinement which is lost in the cold reproduction of waves that is common to every SS I have listened to. Am I right? Am I wrong? Nope, I feel I have passed away those distinctions, if you know what I mean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 7, 2002 Author Share Posted September 7, 2002 Mobile, quote: But mediocre solid state (which there are A LOT more of) can really be painful and unmusical via horns. I will go as far as to say that you don't need Horns to realice the lack of musical realism on most SS's. In the Margules Shop I listened to his speakers, no Horns there, but the sound I whitnessed was as good as Any Horn I have listened to. Dynamical, very dynamical, both in macro and microdynamics, the detail and character of the instruments was there, the percusive and lifelike qualities, all was there. He said that this was because the amplifiers, that he was before also a believer about that the speakers are the most important part in the chain, until he begain to experiment with Tubes. Margules have several patents and I think you might be interested in hearing some of his gear. In fact I think people like you will be able to enjoy better the CD's using an inexpensive little "black box" that he sells by the name of ADE 24. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Manuel---I certainly can't deny that the amps you like are the best you've ever heard, such a statement would be absurd. When one becomes a horny it can be helpful to throw-off much conventional wisdom and lore---Krell and Bryston may actually be bad SS amps not good ones, for our uses. Kinda turns things turvy but mind this; if you were a conventional audiophile you wouldn't be using Klipsch in the first place. Klipsch speakers are OK, I've owned several sets. I come to this forum because some hornies hang out here, I've met several of the people here now and I'm the better for it. But I'm not here to praise Klipsch, nor to bury them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Tom, you are a decent enough guy. You're right, of course, I haven't heard every SS out there and I don't doubt that theoretically there must be a good one out there too. I would love to hear it, but I'm at a point now where I can't imagine anything resembling an incremental improvement in sound, let alone a 'gigantic improvement', to steal a phrase. Someday I'll make it to a Chitown horn meeting, although I'd be hard pressed to pack up the amps and lug 'em there. We can drink some of that bunny piss beer you like so much. Hey, I'll bring some real beer and we can both get drunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted September 7, 2002 Author Share Posted September 7, 2002 kjohnsonhp, It would be interesting to do a double blind experiment. At this moment Im sure the differences are really there. On the other hand, I have a scientific background, and it should be interesting to design a proper experiment. The problem with current DB tests is that they rely on an assumption; that you can identify something without comparing it to your previous experiences and memories. It has been demonstrated that our auditive memories are not precisely accurated, so I think the "normal" DB tests are somehow bad designed to really show something of importance. I would focus the attention of the subjects on little clues and for a very brief periods of time (just seconds), for example, one of the differences that were absolutely audible is that with Tubes I could hear the resonance of the box of the string instruments. With the SS on the other hand all I could hear was somekind of mess, something resembling the resonance, but with a blurry effect of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Please lord....anthing but the double blind listening debate.... I'll do anything.... church tomorrow....homeless shelter on Monday..... Big Brother program the following day... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Yeah, come down some time. We'll go to Ray's too and you can hear his Edgar Titan system, he's nearby. So is Kurt with his TriPath and JBL 3115s and Tannoys. In defense of Old Style it's refreshing. On a hot summer day on the prarie hanging iron and other strenuous physical work a beer like Old Style or Bud is just the ticket, much better than green-bottle beer in such a situation I think. Last meeting I was drinking Guiness, bought Bud but several of the guys brought Guiness, I'll drink it. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 Jim---No, that was Kurt's Gaincard clone. Cost him about $60 to build and in the opinion of many sounded better than a real Gaincard comparing on my 605s. Pretty cool eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 You're right again Tom. On a hot summer day a wine spritzer like beer would go down smooth. But, up here in Minnesota.... Well, you know what we do in Minnesota in the summer? If it falls on a weekend, we have a picnic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted September 7, 2002 Share Posted September 7, 2002 I thought you went ice fishing in the summer? kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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