Klipsch Belle upgrades

[Honeybadger]

I guess I should put my mini DSP on the scope, I do not remember having any noise issues.

 

As I recall mine was dead quiet, and sounded rather good.

 

HB

 

[Chris A]

11 hours ago, Kalifornian said:

Well......I was thinking simple moderately priced solutions. 500-1000 tops. I don't want to tinker. I want to listen to music. I'm not an audiophile  (yet) but I'm not tone deaf either.

 

Here's a simple (new hardware) solution:

https://www.amazon.com/Electro-Voice-F-01U-149-138-DC-One-Loudspeaker-Controller/dp/B001HZOSC8

 

If you can find one used, you'll save money.  Same thing for the Xilica XP-3060, XP-4080, or XA-2080, Ashly Protea, or Yamaha SP2060 - if you can find them used, you can save $.

 

5 hours ago, Honeybadger said:

I guess I should put my mini DSP on the scope, I do not remember having any noise issues...As I recall mine was dead quiet, and sounded rather good.

 

Understand that I didn't say that the units themselves were noisy, regardless of input power, but that they are apparently susceptible to power supply noise.  If you can provide good clean power, all the information that I've seen says that they can work, and for an economical price...but you've got to integrate it together with good power. 

 

I'm not against miniDSP, I just don't believe it's a "bulletproof" or simple solution, like the above units are.  The success in using miniDSP is on the consumer--so novices without some technical background should probably steer clear of them unless they have immediate access to someone who is knowledgeable that can provide turn-key assistance, if need be.  Additionally, if there are any hardware issues down the line, you'll need that assistance again to trouble-shoot/repair.  I recommend 96 kHz processing, (24 bits or more)--if they offer it. 

 

For the other crossover brands mentioned above you get more manufacturer support, integration simplicity, and higher overall reliability.

 

miniDSP can be used if integrated well.  In fact, I'd think that home entrepreneurs would use them in building up full systems, but they'd need to be integrated and tested first, then supported later in order to save a few hundred dollars off the up-front price from the units mentioned just above--which are bulletproof as-is. 

 

Some people that I know that presently do passive third-party crossovers might be able to use miniDSP in their future offerings as third-party system upgraders, but they'd need the exact loudspeakers (or identical loudspeaker types) and intended amplifiers (or surrogates) to be used as part of the all-up integration, adjustment (crossover, EQ, delay, & limiters), and final test/recording/record keeping of the performance results.

 

Chris

[Chris A]

Here is a description of active crossover wiring...

 

First a block diagram of how an active crossover inserts between the preamp outputs and power amplifiers.  Here is one way to wire it up (note that tri-amping will require a third stereo amplifier and three more $9 cables):

 

 

The connections are straightforward:

 

Commercial digital crossovers use XLR (balanced) connectors to reject line noise, while most home electronics use RCA connectors.  Guitar Center usually has RCA-XLR patch cables on hand for about $9.  There are two types: XLR male and XLR female. 

 

You'll need XLR-male in two places (three places if tri-amping), one for each pre-amp to crossover connection (the yellow and blue lines in the figure above).  You can find these cables at many places, but if you've got a Guitar Center nearby, they'll have them on hand.

 

The output of the crossover uses XLR-female to RCA in four places (six places if tri-amping) : the two green and orange connections.  These connect from the output of the digital crossover to your two stereo power amplifiers.

 

The connection of the amplifier outputs to the loudspeakers is really your choice: you can connect one stereo amplifier to one speaker as shown above, or you can connect horizontally, as shown below. It makes little difference if the power amplifiers are the same.  If you're using two different types of amplifiers (tube and SS) the figure below is what you want:

 

 

The quality of crossover that you use is actually important.  For example, on ebay there were 4-in, 8-out Xilica crossovers available used (allowing you to hook up not just two loudspeaker channels, but rather four).  So this one crossover is actually the equivalent of two stereo biamping crossovers in one box (assuming bi-amping).  If you want to tri-amp, you have that capability with this crossover, and still have one input and two outputs available for bi-amping a third loudspeaker.

 

Xilica crossovers from the XP series that would work to tri-amp stereo loudspeakers includes XP-3060, XP-4080 and XP-8080, as well as the Yamaha SP2060 (2-in, 6-out).  Electrovoice makes the DC-One (2-in, 6-out).  Ashly Protea crossovers include the 3.24CL (3-in, 6-out) and the 4.8SP (4-in, 8-out).

 

I recommend the Xilicas or the Yamaha first, then the Electrovoice and Ashly crossovers.  The Xilicas and Yamaha use 24/96 processing internally, while the others use 24/48 processing.  There is a small difference between these two types that is audible in both the transparency and detail, but that difference is not large.  The prices range from about $350-400 for used Dx38s (bi-amping only), to about $1200 for new and used Xilica models (tri-amping).  These are significantly cheaper than new passive crossovers that are quality crossovers that have been tested.

 

The settings in the Belle tri-amping thread can be used without having to run REW or TrueRTA.

 

Chris

 

[Honeybadger]

I know the digital actives sound very good, but I don't like the idea of going from digital to analog,(source to preamp) 

then back into the digital domain for adjustments and back to analog(via active crossover) then out to 2 or 3 amplifiers,

and finally to independent drivers.

 

I prefer to keep it simple, especially when listening to vinyl. A source-point full range would be my first choice, but I find they are always lacking.

 

I understand the benefits associated with actives. (time alignment, equalization etc.) I have used them, they sound great just more than I want to deal with any more.

 

I found the Mini DSP though not the best sounding unit was my favorite, it was simple to use, and I could import R.E.W. this was a great feature.

My Ashley sounded great, but was analog, and couldn't time align, but good sound.

Behringer and DBX were a pain. Instruction manuals were thick as a Bible and the Behringer was noisy.

Never used the Yamaha actives.

EV DX-38 was a very nice crossover though mine had issues.

If I did it again I would try the Pass Labs and manually time align the drivers.

 

HB

[Chris A]

19 minutes ago, Honeybadger said:

they sound great just more than I want to deal with any more.

Once you get them dialed in (something that someone else can do for you and you can plunk in the settings yourself in about 10 minutes), you don't have to "deal with them" at all again.  You switch the power on--they play, When you're done, you switch it off.  They're stable over time, so no "refresh" is needed even after years of aging.  Dust on the front face of the crossover is the only issue that I've found--I wipe that off every few months or so.  So I'm really at a loss to understand what the issue is.  Can you illuminate?

 

The Dx38 is a good crossover, but there are most definitely better ones out there whose sound quality is more transparent and yield much more detail (I've identified them above).

 

Chris

[Honeybadger]

The clutter is more than I want to deal with. I am sure you understand, or will in time.

 

The extra gear, wires, interconnects, etc.

 

This is not just audio for me, I used to have many toys, Muscle cars, motor cycles, boats, PWC, etc. Now I have a stock pick up truck and my camper.

 

Some times simpler is better, at least for some people.

 

HB

[seti]

Call me crazy but I love the Belle stock. Don't F it up