hsosdrummer Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 My system requires no tone controls or loudness compensation to sound "right". However, some source material such as many 1960s-era rock and some jazz recordings will sound more life-like with some lower-frequency boost, which I can apply using my Lexicon DC-1's bass control or its loudness contour, or (rarely) a combination of both. This is always to compensate for the source material; never to compensate for my system. For example, I have a few live rock recordings during the recording of which I was lucky enough to be in the audience (the live cuts on Goodbye, by Cream; "Break Song" on From the Beginning, by Vanilla Fudge, to name two). At that time, the techniques for accurately recording a live rock band were in their infancy. Simply put, they were never able to get enough bass or the right quality of bass on the tape. (They sometimes had trouble with the treble as well, such as on "Politician" and "I'm So Glad" from Goodbye.) Playback of these recordings sounds MUCH closer to how the music sounded live when I witnessed the performances when I use bass and treble compensation, even at life-like (100dB – 105dB) playback levels. Bottom line: If it sounds right it is right. Ignore those who insist that you follow certain dogmatic rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 14 minutes ago, hsosdrummer said: However, some source material such as many 1960s-era rock and some jazz recordings will sound more life-like with some lower-frequency boost...This is always to compensate for the source material; never to compensate for my system. Some of the worst recordings about mastering EQ are the ones that you mention: "classic jazz" of the 50s-60s and many rock recordings of that era. It seems as if the typical mastering EQ curve rolled off anything below 100 Hz and above 10 kHz, and boosted everything between 1-10 kHz. For more info: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsosdrummer Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Chris A said: Some of the worst recordings about mastering EQ are the ones that you mention: "classic jazz" of the 50s-60s and many rock recordings of that era. It seems as if the typical mastering EQ curve rolled off anything below 100 Hz and 10 kHz and boosted everything between 1-10 kHz. Agreed. And the sonic problems have nothing at all to do with playback format (LP, CD, etc.) The LP pressings of the recordings I mention sounded as bad (or worse) than their counterparts on CD. Back then engineers were definitely in the early stages of the learning curve for recording live rock music. FYI, the recordings on Live Cream, Vol. 1 are much closer to the way the band sounded live at the time than are the ones on Wheels of Fire or Goodbye, although they also need big-time help in the bass. IMHO the earliest really good live rock recording is The Who's Live at Leeds. The CD version with all the bonus tracks is killer. Remember that live "classic" jazz music contains much, much less bass than does live rock music. If you want all your jazz to have the same bass impact as all your rock that's fine, but it isn't the way the music sounds live. However, there are lots of jazz albums can still use some help in that regard (Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, by Buddy Rich immediately comes to mind). Edited December 30, 2016 by hsosdrummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted December 30, 2016 Share Posted December 30, 2016 1 hour ago, hsosdrummer said: Remember that live "classic" jazz music contains much, much less bass than does live rock music. I think the difference is in the dynamic range (crest factor) and the differences in instrumentation "fullness" or lack thereof. A saxophone, piano, drums, and string bass are much more transparent than a typical rock band spectrogram. I've found that jazz actually has a lot of bass impact from the string bass (and electric bass, as the case may be) on a relative basis, since the use of kick drum(s) in bebop jazz is typically much, much less (in favor of ride cymbal and high hat) than a typical rock band. You hear that relative increase in string bass performance quite clearly when the music tracks are restored. The bass on classic jazz recordings (about 40-200 Hz...and 31 Hz for 5- and 6-string electric basses) is some of the most attenuated that you can find on "mastered" recordings. One of the most amazing bass performances that I've heard in person and on multichannel SACDs is Jimmy Haslip (of the Yellowjackets fame) on his 6-string electric bass. It's not "mastered out": it energizes the room quite convincingly. Chris 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleywood Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 On December 23, 2016 at 6:03 AM, Chris A said: Loudness contours really need two controls: one for "on" and "off", and another for adjustment of the degree of boost vs. frequency to adjust for the differences in the sensitivities of your loudspeakers and your room size/listening distance. That's what is missing from most two-channel receivers and older preamps with a fixed loudness button. Agreed. It's just too much for high sensitivity speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleywood Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 On December 23, 2016 at 2:04 PM, dtel said: Crazy, it's hard to tell, give us some time and we might have an opinion, but also consider the source. If we're talking about my quirky weirdo persona I already know the answer to that. No need for confirmations or reinforcements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harleywood Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 On December 24, 2016 at 6:07 PM, John Albright said: Partly. No Loudness system I've ever seen would put a load on an amp. Typically, the preamp attenuates its effect as volume knob is raised. I've always looked at my preamp as a source to my amp. So when you have a source (cd, tape, lp ect …) with an over amplified flat sine waves at top and bottom played at high volumes you could have some clipping issues that could damage your amp. Wouldn't the same hold true if you amplified the original source sine wave through your preamp creating the same condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWSmith Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Thanks to Chuck (Tarheel) that I came to this topic/forum... I have a Cambridge Audio Azur 815E and it has NO preamp control.. There IS a recessed bass and treb. A studio owner / engineer that did two of our CDs came by to hear the K'Horns for the first time. He felt they were a bit shy on the bass side believe it or not added some bass and treble himself ... He brought 5 CDs that he mixed and produced at his place for references, I trusted his adjustments and have left them ever since... My old Teac receiver has loudness, but I leave it switched OFF because the Pinnacle AC-850ies (if you are familiar with that brand) have very nice high end response as is when run flat, AND the bass is managed by a pair of subwoofers within that system.. Loudness always gets 'superseded' by a higher volume setting anyway right ? My Dynaco PAS-2 would do that, and so will the Teac.... Just my two cents and observations with my own gear.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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