Do I need new surround speakers? SS-1 vs...

[dimanata2007]

Howdy.

Haven't posted here in a long time, but just recently I upgraded my fronts from F-3 to RF-82ll and while I'm more than satisfied with my fronts and center, I'm not sure about my surrounds.

Before I changed the fronts my Pioneer's MCACC was setting fronts(F-3) as Large and center RC-62 ll and surround SS-1 as Small. No idea why MCACC was setting the RC-62ll as Small, but it is what it is. For some movies I was switching the RC_62 to Large manually, but in most cases it stayed as Small per MCACC. Since the SS-1 can't handle frequencies below 60Hz and the only crossover frequency setting my amp has is 120/80/50 Hz my Small speakers were set at 80Hz. After I hooked up the RF's I reran MCACC a few times and in both cases to my surprise MCACC set the RC-62ll as Large.

Now, I love my SS-1's very much because they are in perfect like new condition and due to their size and shape look and fit great on the wall. What I want is something with lower frequency response, so I can drop the crossover network setting for the surrounds from 80Hz to 50Hz. There are a few different surround speakers on my mind (RS-3, RS-35ll, RS-52), but all of them have frequency response range starting at above 60Hz, so specs wise they will not let me to drop the crossover setting any lower. On top of that I'm not sure I'll feel these 10Hz of difference. I understand that RS would have matching timber to the RF's and RC, but as far as I know it's not that important with surrounds, as it important with fronts and center. So would the surrounds with lower frequency response make noticeable difference or I better keep my "vintage" SS-1's?

[RoboKlipsch]

I think there may be some confusion about the system's setup and your goals.

 

Your subwoofer should be filling in all the tones below whatever crossover you choose.  When a sub is integrated well with the mains (positioned ideally, level matched and EQd, when available), it cannot be located simply by listening.  Below 80hz this is very well accepted, although in truth it is still hard to locate even crossing at 120hz or more, as long as it is done right.

 

When the MCACC program runs it simply looks at the response of a speaker, and if it matches the specs that Pioneer wants for a full range speaker, MCACC then says it can play full range - LARGE.  Or not, in which case it says SMALL.  But MCACC and the receiver ARE NOT making a determination of how you should set that up.  That part can be confusing.

 

In almost all cases, speakers should all be set to small and used with a subwoofer.  The sub can be placed in the optimal location, where the listening position combined with the room acoustics will make the sub respond best.  Then combined, the speakers and subs work seamlessly, regardless of the actual crossover setting.

 

So the center, in one run, may come back LARGE, and may in another run come back SMALL.  The surrounds will almost always come back SMALL, because few if any surrounds have ever been designed to play full range.   By their design/nature, surrounds are not created for the purpose of playing bass.  Only just low enough that they can cross to a subwoofer without losing any sound in the crossover range.  So to your point, if a speaker is rated to only play to 80hz, then crossing it at 80hz IS a problem.  But if it is spec'd to play to the 60's, then 80 becomes just fine.  And anything higher would work fine too, say 100 or 120hz.  

 

MCACC's job is to level match the speakers and then EQ them to the degree that the MCACC program can.  It is your job after that to do the other portions of setup.

 

Typically this is to set all speakers to small, and then set the crossover to what you like, or have tested to sound good.  Very likely 80hz, but don't be afraid to cross higher.  There is no "best" with regards to crossovers.  80hz is the THX standard and what most people shoot for, but in both my theaters mine are higher (100 and 120).  In those cases I can measure the room response and make an informed judgement.  

 

If you find that your sub is not getting it done, you may want to add another sub, or change it to a bigger one.  THAT will really make you happy.  Changing surrounds or a center because you worry it can't keep up?   Highly doubtful.  But of course, change them if you feel that urge, upgrading is fun!

 

RK 

 

[derrickdj1]

There is no need to set the XO, crossover, as low as they can go.  Setting speakers to small is the ideal way in a multichannel system with a subwoofer.  In general the center should be set to small as well as all surround speakers.  Even large towers like the RF 7 and RF 82's should be set to small.

 

One thing you can do in the MCACC calibration is use the Front Align option.  This will EQ the other speakers based off the Mains and will reduce timber problems.

[dimanata2007]

Thank a lot for such detailed response guys.

Yes, I know that sub should/will fill up frequencies below the X-cross point. According to the specs my BIC America F-12 12" sub goes down to 25Hz. I'm not an "addicted to bass" person and that is plenty low for me. My room is 13x16' and 8' sealing and the sub is positioned in the far right corner under an angle, about 3' away from the right front speaker (the left front is in the left corner), so the sub is firing on a diagonal. Also, the sub is raised about 9-10" off the floor, imo it removed an occasional boominess and now it sounds tighter and more defined. I'm not sure if this is an ideal location for the sub, but because of TV stand, couch and recliner placement there is no other place to put the sub.

I've tried to cross all speakers to 80Hz and it sure makes the sound more uniformed and seamless, but I'm not sure I like it that way and yes I know it's not normal :). Imo it works for some not loaded with sound effects movies, but when it comes to the action movies I prefer to set my fronts and center as Large and sub as Sub+ (the low frequencies send to the Large speakers and sub). The surrounds always stay Small. I like when sound effects are separated between the front and surround L and R channels (I even boosted surrounds 2dB), imo it sounds more realistic and that's why I'm looking to upgrade my surrounds, so I can cross them lower and hear more sounds coming from them vs the sub covering the frequencies that the surrounds can't play.

My AVR's doesn't have Front Align calibrating (I think it's reserved for 4 digit Pioneer models and Elite avrs), it runs ambient noise, speaker size and distance, and channel delay and channel level calibration only, but since my front and center are timber matched now and only surrounds are out of timber the effect shouldn't noticeable at all.

 

[derrickdj1]

Changing the XO from 80 Hz to 60 Hz really won't add much sound.  Most of the real low frequencies are diverted from the surrounds in movies.  Surrounds provide ambient and directional sound.  If you like running the speakers set to Large and the sub to plus, you may actually like more bass that your current sub is not giving you.

 

Sometimes having one sub in the front and one in the rear of the room will help.  My last calibration set the XO at 100 Hz and that is fine.  I usually like 80 Hz but, not because it sounds better.  The audio spectrum covers 20 Hz to 20 k Hz.  The band from 60-80 Hz does not even cover 1 octave.  Google sub crawl and see if the placement is fairly good.

 

A bad sub location can cause you to loose 10-12 db which is the equivalent of 3 or 4 subs.  You can also try the sub in a nearfield location.

[dimanata2007]

I played with my set up for a few hours yesterday using Guardians of the galaxy and Jack the giant slayer and tried to X-over everything at 120 and 80 (I couldn't go lower, cuz my surround  limited at 60Hz) and then XO'd the center +surrounds at 80Hz and surrounds only at 80Hz. Well, according to my ears my set up sounds wider, more realistic and dramatic when the fronts and center are set to Large (no XO), the surrounds crossed at 80Hz and the sub set to Sub+. I left the fronts and center channel set per MCACC, boosted the surrounds +2 and set the sub gain at 4 with no change to the input signal.

I'm gonna keep my old SS-1 for now, but thinking about a better AVR that would let me to set XO for each channel separately.

[RoboKlipsch]

A lot of what you are saying, as DDJ is suggesting, is related to the size and location of the sub. 

What you seem to like is what the sub can do -- and can't-- and like when the fronts fill that in.

I agree with DDJ...if you can't move it around more, consider a 2nd sub before changing all the rest!

 

Another matching bic may do you justice...

[dimanata2007]

^ maybe. Due to the furniture placement I can put the sub only to the far right or far left corner of the room. Right now it's in the right corner 2' to the right off the right front speaker. I've tried to put the sub back on the floor and next to the wall and imo it sounds heavier and cleaner when sub is placed on diagonal and raised. The F-12 is a front firing rear ported sub,and if I place it next in the corner next to the wall it's firing into the side of the sofa and if I put on diagonal- it's firing diagonally through the room.

I watched Rouge one yesterday without touching my latest setting. The only thing I played with and was the sub gain, but in the end I left it at the same level.

[RoboKlipsch]

The sub is so omnidirectional it matters little where it is pointed or firing, or the port.  As long as neither is blocked, firing at the sofa actually is a huge plus.  It reduces distortion from the driver itself by abosrbing mechanical frequencies.  Try it!  

[derrickdj1]

Many of us with subs, once setup, never go to the sub and up or lower the gain.  It is better to make adjustments in the avr that can be easily switched back to calibration levels.

[dimanata2007]

 My sub has an easy to reach and turn gain knob and I decided that it's easier than to mess with the menu. I haven't touch the sub level since then. I thought that boosting the level in the AVR puts more load on AVR?

[dimanata2007]

On 4/13/2017 at 2:03 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

The sub is so omnidirectional it matters little where it is pointed or firing, or the port.  As long as neither is blocked, firing at the sofa actually is a huge plus.  It reduces distortion from the driver itself by abosrbing mechanical frequencies.  Try it!  

That couch is my wife's throne and she didn't like when the sub was firing directly into the side of the couch- she can some vibration with is gone when the sub turned diagonally or away from the couch, so at least for now it stays as is.

[RoboKlipsch]

The wife and her needs are always critical!  

 

When you lift the sub off the ground you lose some boomy low end...you are basically "EQing" your sub with you ear which is great.  Experimenting is the fun part.

When you make your mains full range + sub, you are adding "subs" from your mains to enhance the sub.  

The placement and quality of that bass are affected because the position for mains is often not best for a sub.

That is the only reason we suggested you may want another sub.  Putting another sub anywhere towards the back of the room will do miles better than the mains + subs.

BUT for music many like what you're doing.  In the end, what you want is all that matters  (and the wife :))

[dimanata2007]

Just a little update: as a present I got a pair of used RS-7 (damn they are HUGE!!! ) and they sure sound bigger and fuller vs my SS-1.  

So far I decided to keep my crossover point at 80. 

[wuzzzer]

On 4/17/2017 at 3:40 PM, dimanata2007 said:

 My sub has an easy to reach and turn gain knob and I decided that it's easier than to mess with the menu. I haven't touch the sub level since then. I thought that boosting the level in the AVR puts more load on AVR?

Congrats on your RS-7s!

And no, increasing the sub output level on your AVR does nothing to it like what you're describing.  The signal is at the pre-amp level and doesn't affect any internal power output.

[dmb12679]

I switched from my SS-1's to an RS42ii and was blown away by the difference in sound.  A major upgrade IMO.  I'm sure your RS7s are even more pronounced.  I got caught up with my front stage(7ii/64ii) and just assumed the rears were on par.  When I found the right deal on the rs42ii's I realized what I was missing.

 

I also was surprised what a pair of SS1's brought used when I sold them.  In good condition(2years ago) I think they sold for about $150.  

 

Enjoy the RS7'!

[dimanata2007]

Thanks guys. 

The RS-7 look intimidatingly big, but the difference is definitely noticeable.

My SS-1 in pristine shape and I'm hoping to get at least $150 for them, I've seen SS-.5 going for $100+, so $150 for the SS-1 is more than reasonable price imo.