Thank or Blame it on the studio...

[timerr]

Many people here give credit to Klipsch for that "real or live" sound that they deliver. And I think they should be praised. But the recordings themselves have more to do with it IMHO. Some recordings just flat out sound better than others. I think this has a lot to do with things like how it was mixed and miced in the studio, and much to do with who mastered it (polished it up)

2 examples

1. Eric Clapton "Pilgram"

A fantastic recording to say the least. In the

credits it was mastered by Bob Ludwig who has worked

with the best in the world over the years bar none.

But to me the recording sounds "too polished" the

vocals sound "larger than life"

2. Shawn Mullins "Soul's Core"

To me this one was nailed from the start in the

studio. Vocals are crisp, clear, and sound like there

could be a mic and a singer standing right in front

of you. Same with the instruments. It just sounds

more "real and natural" Klipsch-like

End of my ramblings, you may roast me now...

And by the way, I blame a lot of my critical listening on many of you here. My therapist says that with a few more sessions I'll be able to just listen to music for fun again.

[AndyKubicki]

Timerr, I think you are correct about that! This is what makes judging equipment more difficult. You need to know you are starting out with a well recorded CD, for example, before you judge your CD player. If you detect a difficiency, do you blame the player itself (or anything else in the chain) or the recording? There are many examples of poorly recorded CDs and vinyls. Another problem in this area is that most groups (especially rock or pop) want their CDs recorded "hot", or louder because they have found that upon radio play, the recordings which are louder tend to be more noticed, which equates to more sales. Music is full of dynamics-transients. Engineers have a limit (which in the days of vinyl was even more critical-you couldn't have something so loud that the needle couldn't track the grove). If you have to stay within that limit, then you would have to find the loudest point in the recording and that would be your max volume. But then you have a problem when the music is at a quieter point. Enter the limiter! Enter the compressor! Enter all kinds of processing! Loud transients are limited from reaching too high a point, while lower passages are brought up. Now you could hear everything LOUD! But is this what makes a good recording? This is a source of frustration for engineers, because many want to do the best job possible, but if the customer (pushed by recording execs) says he wants it recorded hot and you want the job, you give the customer what he wants.

This is not to mention another thing: just as in audio, the shortest path is the best, the more processing there is the more the degradation in total sound of a recording.

I rarely hear a recording where the bass drum is properly audible, and being that I usually hear bass and drums before anything else (yeah, I used to play bass!), I miss the bass drum, especially when there is a great drummer. The snare is another example. In a live situation, the snare is pretty loud, producing a spike during recording that gets processed out. I like the real thing and I want recordings which can come close to the real thing!

[AndyKubicki]

Danocaster, I'm surprized you didn't jump in on this thread!

[Deang]

I don't agree at all, as any well recorded and mixed session will always sound proportionately better on Klipsch.

[AndyKubicki]

Well Jeez Dean, I'll go for that too! Anything sounds better on a Klipsch! But if it doesn't, blame it on the studio!

[Deang]

So true, so true.

[Tillerman]

Andy,

I noticed your GG avatar. I have been impressed with some older prog rock recordings such as GG for lack of compression and good sonic qualities.

My wife often mentions how "flat" many pop/rock recordings sound, indicating her term for lack of dynamics. We are fortunate to have high quality classical public radio here in Minnesota. We have found that this programming often has amazing fidelity, especially compared to commercial rock/pop stations and the horrendous signal they transmit.

Scott

[AndyKubicki]

Alas! A fellow GG fan! Well Scott, prog composers utilized more varied techniques in their writing than pop/rock writers, such as different time signatures, differing harmonic structures, as well as use of dynamics. Early Genesis is a good example of music that can go from mellow strumming guitars to electrified guitar leads with a strong, deep bass and lots of synths, then back to the soft parts again! Can you imagine the loss of emotional content if this were processed out? So I believe your observation is correct that not too much compression has been done to prog recordings.

As far as GG goes, they did have one LP/CD which was recorded with hardly any low end. I don't remember what the story was on that, why it was done this way. This was The Missing Piece.

I did have another observation on other prog artists from the days of vinyl. Early Yes and Emerson Lake and Palmer had a couple pieces with distortion that sounded to me like mistracking (back in my vinyl days). But when I bought the CD version, it was still there! It's on the very first track of Tarkus, right at the beginning. I don't recall which Yes tunes have that right now. But it's funny how you can think something sounds like _______, and you believe it for years only to be proved wrong much later! I had a similar experience with a classical recording where I kept thinking I'm hearing dust in the grooves. Once I got the CD, I found it was the creaking of musicians' chairs! Ain't no dust noise on CD!

[Audio Flynn]

FOR INSTANCE>>>

Calos Santana "supernatural" is really unnatural.

Good playing but overcompressed and overproduced to the point it is boring.

"Last of the Mohicans" soundtrack is an older CD I know well for testing. Justin likes it so I feel validated.

TAS current issue has a great list of reference quality CDs. Many are movie soundtracks.

I believe the Gladiator is pretty good; I only own the DVD not the CD.

Neil Young "Silver and Gold" is great for Martin guitar sound IMHO!

[Tillerman]

Andy,

I have noticed the same thing between certain LPs and the corresponding CDs, including some "remastered" CDs. Keith Emerson's non-acoustic keyboard work was extremely distorted; it was on the LP and stayed that way on the CD. To some degree that was the "style" of the time, as heard on Emerson's prior group THE NICE and especially so on early SOFT MACHINE recordings.

Off topic somewhat, but do you listen to any of the new prog rock groups?

Scott

[AndyKubicki]

I'm so in the process of buying up the older material that I don't really get much new. I have been getting all I can by Don Ellis now (though not prog, you can consider him sort of prog-jazz perhaps). I do have a couple CDs by Echolyn which I like As The World more than Suffocating the Bloom. Just picked up Jean Luc Ponte's Live from Dresden and love it! It is well recorded, except for the drums, and the German audience is great as far as being able to hear the concert, yet a polite and enthusiastic applause AT THE END of each tune. I hate when the audience whistles, yells, etc in the middle of a performance. I saw JLP live a few years ago and though he was OK, I wasn't moved by the music. He has a new lineup now and they played a lot of older material and it's great! And the quality was quite good (I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat myself when under stress, I repeat...).

What newer Prog were you referring to?

[AndyKubicki]

Audio Flynn,

FOR INSTANCE>>>

Calos Santana "supernatural" is really unnatural.

You would think that someone as popular as Santana would care more about how his work is recorded...he doesn't need to have his recordings processed to compete like an unknown band.

[Tillerman]

Andy,

Some of the newer prog that I listen to are Marillion, current King Crimson, SMPTe, Sylvan, Spock's Beard (complex vocals are a bit like GG), Dream Theater (prog metal), Tool (prog metal), etc...

Scott

[AndyKubicki]

Speaking of the Krimso and good or poor recording, I have only a few DVDs. KC's Deja Vroom, Yes at House of Blues and ELP Live at Albert Hall. Deja Vroom is very well done and sounds great. There are a couple minor details I wonder about, like why do you see Bruford hitting the crash cymbal, yet you don't hear it. But overall sound quality is good. Yes sounds OK, not quite as good as Deja Vroom. Lots of audience noise there too...in the middle of solos! ELP is the worst of these three, with instruments and mikes being turned up after a musician starts a solo or singing.

Most recent purchase was Bill Bruford's Earthworks Live, Footloose in NY. Wow! Great sound, though maybe just a little too much of the room's echo for my taste. But here was another problem for my ears. The acoustic bass does not sound uniform. You can see the bass player plucking strings, but you tend to hear the lower notes. I'm not sure if that's a miking problem or what. I can hear the electric bass (on other CDs or DVDs) more evenly, but not the acoustic bass. Bummer!

So the original recording and how well it's done can make or break the way a band sounds on all medium.

[Audible Nectar]

Oh yes - the recordings DO make all of the difference. Klipsch do show the good and bad points of recordings (especially for a "classic rock" listener like me).

Emerson, Lake and Palmer's "Brain Salad Surgery" is an example of a work that I really like, but not so much the recording - a very bright, spitty sound from the snare (especially prevalent during "Jerusalem"). It's worse than the norm. This is particularly common with classic rock stuff (even some remasters leave a bit to be desired).

I do find that my Rega Planet CD player helps quite a bit - a much more "analog" sounding machine that smooths over some of this harshness.

I guess that's the devil of having such a revealing system. You will hear everything - warts and all. I wouldn't want it any other way.

[AndyKubicki]

I was noticing all the remasters of ELP that are out now and wondered whether they are worth getting. I probably won't be able to resist... You are right about the brightness on their early stuff. I just thought it was my system, as it's on the bright side. But the poor quality of the Live at Albert Hall DVD blows my mind! Anybody have that CD? Is it as bad or did they do a better job on that one? Also, Brain Salad Surgury is available as DVDa, or was it enhanced DVD? I wonder it that's worth getting for someone like me who is in 2 channel mode. In other words, is the 2 channel track on DVDa better then red book 2 channel?