mopar dave Posted November 29, 2002 Share Posted November 29, 2002 i have A-B'ed my 81 & 85 heresy's and the 81's sound much nicer than the 85's, clearer,transparent and much more musical. the 81's have k77 alnico's, k55m mid's with metal horns. the 85's have k77m, k53 mid's with plastic horns. the 85's sound a little muffled and not quite as clear. what is it about the 81's that make them sound better? could it be the k77's, k55m's or maybe the metal mid horn's? or maybe the crossover? anybody have an idea please respond. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 Mopar HMMMMM. Your hearing must be very accute, a lot better than mine anyhow. I have owned 3 sets of Heresy's over the years. I have a pair of '81's that were my first ever Klipsh speakers. I have always kept them for sentimental reasons. I actually have given them to my oldest son. I also, at the moment own a pair of '92 Heresy 2's. Sorry, getting off topic with my Heresy History... Anhow to get back to my point - I do not hear much if any difference between the two speakers. But then again I have not done an extensive A-B test like you have. If your Heresy 1's sound more "live" I would bet is is the driver horn differences you stated in your question. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 thanks for the responce j-malotky. there is a definite difference between the two heresy's. i suspected the metal mid horn or the k55m driver. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted November 30, 2002 Share Posted November 30, 2002 To my ears the plastic midhorn sounds over-damped on the II's, but on the metal horn version, it sounds just right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted November 30, 2002 Author Share Posted November 30, 2002 is there something that can be done to the over dampened mid horns? any mods that i can do to the heresy II's? thanks dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 It may be more to it than just the horn lenses causing the difference in sound...since other components are different between the two models, too! You can always damp something that isn't damped, but if it is already sounding over-damped, and the damping isn't removable, you can't...it is the nature of the plastic lenses to sound damped to begin with to some extent as compared to the metal lenses...not much you can do about that...unless you replace with metal lenses. The metal lenses are designed to be mounted from the rear, where on the Heresy II model they aren't mounted that way...the metal lenses CAN be modified on their flanges to mount from the front, though...but is alot of tedious work...better have a good Dremel tool! And you will need a good flat SHARP mill bastard file too...in order to get the rear of the mounting flange evened up for a snug fit into the routed-out opening on the HeresyII motorboards. You will need to countersink mounting holes on them in front too! Keep in mind that those built-up spots on the rear of the mounting flange on metal horns where the holes are...are for reinforcement of the holes, and you will have to either remove that or relieve the motorboard in that area to get a good fit. Since you are gonna have to countersink those holes from the front, my advise is to NOT remove any of the metal on the back, but instead remove what you need to on the motorboard for the proper fit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 i have been calling the second pair of heresy's II's, but i think there actually 1.5's. 1985's with k77m,k53,k22k and e2 xover. i have the metal horns, but the k53 wont work with them, their bolt on type. the metal horns are screw on. is there a xover mod i can make to equal the sound of the heresy I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Delaflor Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 I have Heresy 1, but my tweeters are K77M with metal horns. So far it appears that Heresy 2 also have the K77M but with plastic horn, I wonder why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Dave, Heresy was built until sometime in 1985. 1984 and 1985 models had the components you list. K-52-H was also used sometime in the last few years of Heresy production. If the horns and woofer mount from inside and you can take the back off, they are Heresy. If they mount from the outside and you cannot take the back off, they are Heresy II. Not including the very earlierst that had University tweeter and squwaker drivers, Klipsch used two different tweeters, four different squawker drivers, and a whole lot of different woofers in the Heresy. They are all referred to as Heresy. All sound very much alike, with the exception of a very small difference in last years of production. They sound to me more like Heresy II with which they share the same squawker driver. IMHO the difference in sound between the 81s and the 85s is due almost entirely to the squawker driver. I had a pair of 84s with the same components as your 85s I used as the rear channels in a HT system along with three earlier Heresys with K-55-V. The difference was noticeable enough that I sold them and got an older pair for the rear. I don't think one really sounds better than the other, just different. The plastic horn is a definite improvement over the metal one, albeit a small one. It is not as prone to annoying resonances as the metal one. The horn should not add anything to the sound. The plastic ones are better at doing that than the metal ones. People damp the metal horn with Dynamat or Moretite to make them sound like the plastic ones. You could make your 85s into the equivalent of your 81s by buying a pair of K-55-v driver/K-700 horn on eBay and removing the 33 uF capacitor from the crossover networ. OTOH your could just sell the 85s and buy something older. Should be a wash except for shipping costs, if any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 1, 2002 Author Share Posted December 1, 2002 yes malcom, my 85 heresy's do have removable backs and the components are mounted from inside. i am using these as rear speakers in a theater system. i am building a pair of cornwalls as front mains. i am planning on using some of the components from the older heresy's, one has a blown woofer and the numbers are not consecutive 134x291 138x212. will the 85's be a good match for the cornwall's or will i have to change the mid driver's? dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 1, 2002 Share Posted December 1, 2002 Older Heresys with K-55-V or K-55-M squawker driver and K-77 or K-77-M tweeter would be a good source for parts for the Cornwalls you are building. They are the same as used in the original Cornwall (not Cornwall II). You can use any Heresy crossover network (Type C, D, E, or E2) as a base for building a Type B network for a Cornwall since they have the same autotransformer. You will need a different squawker horn and woofer. If your hearing is like mine, I think you may find the difference in timbre between a Cornwall with a K-55-V or K-55-M and a Heresy with a K-53-K irritating in some cases. But I wouldn't rush into changing your 85s. I would build the Cornwalls first and then see. There will also be a very small difference in timbre because of the difference in crossover frequencies between Heresy and Cornwall. But there is not much you can do about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 thanks for the help. i will be starting on those cornwalls this weekend. my father has a small woodshop in his garage, with his assistance they will turn out real nice i'm sure. all i need now is another k33e and a 4 cap for the network. what should i use for caps. i know i need a 4uf and a 2uf but, what brand or type? thanks again dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 Choice of capacitors is a very personal thing, one of those topics, like speaker cables, that can get very heated. Different folks have different preferences. Some swear by paper in oil. Some like metallized polypropylene. Some like polypropylene and foil. Klipsch seems to have use metallized mylar in the later Heresys. There should be a good deal about the topic in the archives. My preference is Solen Fastcaps 5% metallized polypropylene. They are available at places like www.partsexpress.com. Even if you decide to go with something else in the end, they make a reasonable starting point. Good luck with your project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 i will take your advice on the solen fastcaps. i want to keep the klipsch sound as close as possible to the original cornwall. getting back to my original topic, the 85 heresy's, i have a pair of k57's that i'm not using, can i use them in place of the k53's with or without xover mods? is the k57 simular to the k55 timber wise? thank you dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 2, 2002 Share Posted December 2, 2002 K-57 was used in Cornwall II. I haven't listened to one for a long time. So, I cannot say for sure how close the timbre is to the original Cornwall with the K-55-V. But I do recall some timbre difference when listening to them side by side. My guess is it shouldn't be any more different than the K-53-K. Perhaps a Cornwall expert will offer some advice on this. You already have to modify the Heresy crossover. The difference between what is required for a K-53 and a K-57 should be minor if any. You should be able to tell by looking at the schematics. Again, perhaps a Cornwall expert will offer some advice on this. FWIW if you want the sound as close to the original as possible, you should probably use paper in oil caps. They are nothing special, just motor caps. A lot of folks think Aerovox when it comes to these. But, Klipsch seems to have used most manufacturers depending on availability and price. They have been replace in most manufacturers' line with polypropylene in oil. But used, or even new old stock, paper in oil caps are frequently available on eBay. As long as they don't leak, they are probably as good as new. But IMHO modern polypropylene caps are a better choice for many reasons. The same could probably be said for the "audiophile" paper in oil caps now available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 2, 2002 Author Share Posted December 2, 2002 as for the xover mod for the cornwall, you say paper in oil would be close to original sound ,but how do the solen fast caps compare to these. also, are the aerovox caps paper in oil? what was original on B networks? what would you use? i see alot of people in this forum seem to prefer solen caps. thanks dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 3, 2002 Share Posted December 3, 2002 The originals were paper in oil. Aerovox is the name of one the many manufacturers of paper in oil caps Klipsch used. Personally, I would use the Solen caps. Capacitor technology has improved considerably since paper in oil caps. If you search the archives, you can find a good deal of information and opinion on caps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar dave Posted December 4, 2002 Author Share Posted December 4, 2002 solen it is. thanks malcolm. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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