KT88 Posted February 23, 2022 Share Posted February 23, 2022 17 minutes ago, svberger said: So theoretically might it be safer to stick with the AA and disable the tweeter protection? I would say yes, there was a reason why PWK developed the AA when the transistor amps appeared or regardless of type, any amp with more power. But that does not mean that the AA is only a compromise due to better protection (now thought even without the diodes which are another type of protection in addition which is for me a bit overdone as long we do not run beach parties with the Lascala). To my ears the AA is a very good sounding network which is clearer than the A at solid living room SPL. But please others should share their wisdom on this topic also. I would try the type A with moderate SPL only. It may have a slightly better impulse at low SPL and may be that the transient between the three drivers is even a tad more organic. You will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted February 24, 2022 Author Share Posted February 24, 2022 I spoke with Michael Crites this morning, and he was pretty clear that if the diodes are disabled on the AA, there is no reason to get them over the Type A far as any additional protection. They're a part of the protection circuit. So the Type A it is for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted February 28, 2022 Author Share Posted February 28, 2022 Got the Type A's today, got them in and so far so good. I tried on vs. the old AA first, and really couldn't hear all that much difference, certainly not negative difference. A little sharper up top then the original's, but nothing causing me to run for cover. Maybe it's that they're A's, instead of AA's. Maybe it's just using old tube gear. Maybe it's that my soon to be, shellshocked over time 65 year old ears can deal with it. Who knows? Who cares? But at least I know that they're mildly updated and I'm happy about that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 On 2/28/2022 at 3:56 PM, svberger said: Got the Type A's today, got them in and so far so good. I tried on vs. the old AA first, and really couldn't hear all that much difference, certainly not negative difference. A little sharper up top then the original's, but nothing causing me to run for cover. Maybe it's that they're A's, instead of AA's. Maybe it's just using old tube gear. Maybe it's that my soon to be, shellshocked over time 65 year old ears can deal with it. Who knows? Who cares? But at least I know that they're mildly updated and I'm happy about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 Today I decided to put the original AA's back in to see if I could hear much difference, and much to my surprise I could. And I liked the AA's quite a bit more. There is nothing really wrong with the new crossovers, but the originals have more richness, more soul, more color. They just sound more real to me. So I'm going to leave them in there for now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 1 minute ago, svberger said: Today I decided to put the original AA's back in to see if I could hear much difference, and much to my surprise I could. And I liked the AA's quite a bit more. There is nothing really wrong with the new crossovers, but the originals have more richness, more soul, more color. They just sound more real to me. So I'm going to leave them in there for now. Thinking you need to let your new crossovers a little more time, about a week or less or more to form. There is a debate however, between those that believe in capacitor burnin and those that do not. From my experience, something came together for me after a few days, hours in. jmlo...thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, billybob said: Thinking you need to let your new crossovers a little more time, about a week or less or more to form. There is a debate however, between those that believe in capacitor burnin and those that do not. From my experience, something came together for me after a few days, hours in. jmlo...thanks. Yes I've been thinking that a couple days is not enough time. I only wish I didn't like the AA's as much as I do. But you're right, and I'll get the A's back in there shortly to give them more time. FWIW I do believe in cap break in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, svberger said: Yes I've been thinking that a couple days is not enough time. I only wish I didn't like the AA's as much as I do. But you're right, and I'll get the A's back in there shortly to give them more time. FWIW I do believe in cap break in. Well, do what you think best. Not trying to make more work for you...just chiming when in doubt. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 14 minutes ago, svberger said: Yes I've been thinking that a couple days is not enough time. I only wish I didn't like the AA's as much as I do. But you're right, and I'll get the A's back in there shortly to give them more time. FWIW I do believe in cap break in. Doubt it has to do with network and more to do with new caps. Not a significant difference between the two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 8 minutes ago, billybob said: Well, do what you think best. Not trying to make more work for you...just chiming when in doubt. Not at all I appreciate your advice very much. That's why I made the post, to see what reactions I would get. I go back and forth with this stuff and while I trust my ears, I also realize that sometimes I need to forego instant pleasure for the payoff that having a little more patience brings. It's easy enough to swap the Type A's back in, and that's what I'm going to do. 3 minutes ago, henry4841 said: Doubt it has to do with network and more to do with new caps. Not a significant difference between the two. I agree. My post was confusing. I realize it's the sound of the old caps that I like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 3 hours ago, svberger said: I realize it's the sound of the old caps that I like. Not surprised by that statement. If someone is happy with the sound they have why fix it. Nothing wrong though with those willing to spend the money just to satisfy some curiosity. That is exactly what I have done building over 30 amplifiers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 3, 2022 Author Share Posted March 3, 2022 15 minutes ago, henry4841 said: Not surprised by that statement. If someone is happy with the sound they have why fix it. Nothing wrong though with those willing to spend the money just to satisfy some curiosity. That is exactly what I have done building over 30 amplifiers. On the other hand... It's fair to say that I really didn't give the new caps an even chance. The old caps have had 45 years(at least!) and while I don't hold to the convention that they require changing because they're old, I do think that what I'm hearing in the new caps is going to change, and to be honest they sound pretty good right out of the box as I indicated when I first put the new crossovers in . So I've put the Type A's back in and am going to leave them there until at least the end of the month before I do anymore judging. At that point if I decided to swap in the old one's again, I should have at least a couple hundred hours on the new one's and that should tell me if they're going to stay or not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 36 minutes ago, svberger said: On the other hand... It's fair to say that I really didn't give the new caps an even chance. The old caps have had 45 years(at least!) and while I don't hold to the convention that they require changing because they're old, I do think that what I'm hearing in the new caps is going to change, and to be honest they sound pretty good right out of the box as I indicated when I first put the new crossovers in . So I've put the Type A's back in and am going to leave them there until at least the end of the month before I do anymore judging. At that point if I decided to swap in the old one's again, I should have at least a couple hundred hours on the new one's and that should tell me if they're going to stay or not. Just my 2 cents. I have Crites xovers that can be switched from type A to type AA. From my point of view, it is the different circuitry that makes a big difference, not the capacitors. Since I can change over, the components, including the capacitors, remain the same. I don't like these sonicaps at all with the K400 and K77. They don't become more acceptable to my ears even after 40 years of continuous playing. I have fitted my Crites xovers with polyester caps instead. But regardless of that, the AA circuit allows for much more speech intelligibility. At medium volumes, the AA sounds better. At very low volumes, the Type A xover has the slight advantage of a very organic sound. But somehow everything sounds a bit artificially prettified and less clear at the same time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybob Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 50 minutes ago, svberger said: On the other hand... It's fair to say that I really didn't give the new caps an even chance. The old caps have had 45 years(at least!) and while I don't hold to the convention that they require changing because they're old, I do think that what I'm hearing in the new caps is going to change, and to be honest they sound pretty good right out of the box as I indicated when I first put the new crossovers in . So I've put the Type A's back in and am going to leave them there until at least the end of the month before I do anymore judging. At that point if I decided to swap in the old one's again, I should have at least a couple hundred hours on the new one's and that should tell me if they're going to stay or not. Cool, you sound like a reasonable listener. Enjoy! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 3, 2022 Author Share Posted March 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, KT88 said: Just my 2 cents. I have Crites xovers that can be switched from type A to type AA. From my point of view, it is the different circuitry that makes a big difference, not the capacitors. Since I can change over, the components, including the capacitors, remain the same. I don't like these sonicaps at all with the K400 and K77. They don't become more acceptable to my ears even after 40 years of continuous playing. I have fitted my Crites xovers with polyester caps instead. But regardless of that, the AA circuit allows for much more speech intelligibility. At medium volumes, the AA sounds better. At very low volumes, the Type A xover has the slight advantage of a very organic sound. But somehow everything sounds a bit artificially prettified and less clear at the same time. Point taken. I'm glad I bought the A's to at least being able to compare. As I indicated, I'll listen to them for a few weeks and then decide which way I want to go. Keep them in there, change to the AA's with original caps, or maybe even replace their caps with polyester or something else. It's all good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 11 hours ago, KT88 said: Just my 2 cents. I have Crites xovers that can be switched from type A to type AA. From my point of view, it is the different circuitry that makes a big difference, not the capacitors. Since I can change over, the components, including the capacitors, remain the same. I don't like these sonicaps at all with the K400 and K77. They don't become more acceptable to my ears even after 40 years of continuous playing. I have fitted my Crites xovers with polyester caps instead. But regardless of that, the AA circuit allows for much more speech intelligibility. At medium volumes, the AA sounds better. At very low volumes, the Type A xover has the slight advantage of a very organic sound. But somehow everything sounds a bit artificially prettified and less clear at the same time. The only difference between the two crossovers is in the tweet, mid crossover. The A being 1st order and the AA 3rd order protecting the delicate tweeter. That point of crossover is, if memory serves me, 6,000hz. I made that statement just looking at paper and have not done a direct comparison audible. Sonically it should not be much difference but if you hear a difference I surely am not one to question what you are hearing. Technically, from what little I know, a 1st order has big sound at low volumes whereas steeper networks require cranking them up more to fill a room. Oh, the AA does have those zeners in the tweet circuit for protection that can degrade the sound somewhat but should not contribute to the sound that much. At least at normal volume levels. Sound is so subjective. Many can hear so much better then the average person. My grandson cringes when he hears a dog whistle where I, like most, hear nothing. As far as breaking in those few components in a crossover network, doubtful in my opinion. One probably just gets use to the sound after some time. Tubes require some break in time by the very nature on how they work. SS electronics should be broken in after a few minutes or hours at most. The only time I really noticed some breaking in of a SS electronic piece of gear was with one of my TPA3255 amplifier builds. Very weak bass on fire up but after a few minutes some of the best bass from an amplifier I have ever heard. Big change but only taking a few minutes. Tubes have gases and other particles floating around that the getter absorbs being the reason for sounding better after 100 hours or so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry4841 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 11 hours ago, svberger said: Point taken. I'm glad I bought the A's to at least being able to compare. As I indicated, I'll listen to them for a few weeks and then decide which way I want to go. Keep them in there, change to the AA's with original caps, or maybe even replace their caps with polyester or something else. It's all good. I like those can type motor run capacitors for woofer to mid crossover, the kind PWK used. For mid tweet crossover I am using those NOS Russian PIO sealed caps. One can do better I am sure but you can also do much worse as well. The cost is not that great using the ones mentioned. Not sure about finding those sealed Russian PIO ones at this turbulent time though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 3, 2022 Author Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 hour ago, henry4841 said: I like those can type motor run capacitors for woofer to mid crossover, the kind PWK used. For mid tweet crossover I am using those NOS Russian PIO sealed caps. One can do better I am sure but you can also do much worse as well. The cost is not that great using the ones mentioned. Not sure about finding those sealed Russian PIO ones at this turbulent time though. I like them also but ultimately caps are way down on my list of sonic priorities. As long as my ears aren’t telling me they’re awful and I know they’re up to spec I’m ok with them. After putting the A/Sonicaps back in yesterday I can confirm that they easily meet the above criteria for me to enjoy them. Today they’ll get to play with the latest addition to the family , a McIntosh MC225 which never sounds less then great anyway. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KT88 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 hour ago, svberger said: I like them also but ultimately caps are way down on my list of sonic priorities. As long as my ears aren’t telling me they’re awful and I know they’re up to spec I’m ok with them. After putting the A/Sonicaps back in yesterday I can confirm that they easily meet the above criteria for me to enjoy them. Today they’ll get to play with the latest addition to the family , a McIntosh MC225 which never sounds less then great anyway. So Mcintosh is some kind of new currency?😎 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svberger Posted March 3, 2022 Author Share Posted March 3, 2022 26 minutes ago, KT88 said: So Mcintosh is some kind of new currency?😎 And a lot more fun then crypto!😏 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.