greg928gts Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 I ordered my veneer for my upcoming project to re-veneer my Khorns. I have a pair of 1981 khorns that came through birch raw, and finished by Mr. L. Cheapo. I purchased 2 sheets, 4' x 8' of sequence matched Rosewood veneer from Tapeease.com. With the edge cutting tool, 2 roller covers, and shipping, the total was about $350.00. I'm planning to do a little custom work to the tops as well. I'll take photos of the project as I go. Any tips from anyone before I start? I'm going to strip them down completely, separate the tops, take off the grill cloth, and make custom 2 x 4 stands that hold them at the proper height for working on the fronts, flat in front of me. This way I can walk all the way around to work on them. Any tips on finishing before I get to that point? I am a housebuilder and woodworker by trade, so I think I have the skills for this project, but I've never done veneer before. I know enough to have help when I set the veneer! With contact cement, there's no going back! Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Are you using the melamine-backed veneer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 Tip 1: Don't think that you have the skills for the project if you have never veneered before. It is a new set of skills. I am sure you can do it successfully the first time out. But there is a learning curve. Tip 2: Learn everything you can about veneering before starting. If nothing else, get the book "Veneering Simplified" from www.constantines.com and read it before doing anything Tip 3: Try something smaller and less valuable than your Klipschorns first, even something as simple as a small box. You will get an idea of what is involved and the problems you can encounter. Tip 4: Make sure you have everything you need before you start. You will need either a J roller or a veneer hammer to prevent bubbles and achieve good adhesion. You may want a veneer saw and other tools, too. Tip 5: You don't need help setting the veneer. See Tip 2. Pretty much the same applies to finishing. I think a lacquer finish on Rosewood would be stunning. Let us know what kind of finish you are considering and I am sure someone can provide some guidance. Good luck! Looking forward to pictures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 1, 2003 Author Share Posted January 1, 2003 I got the NBL wood backed veneer, not the paper backed. They are recommending a solvent based contact cement and then scraping with a piece of hardwood to set the veneer. Then a light sanding with a random orbit sander up to about 180 grit and a clear finish. They said that sanding finer than that would tend to close the grain more, make it too smooth for the finish to penetrate. I would love to use a laquer finish. I don't really understand the difference between laquer and polyurethane in terms of application and durability, but I know the laquer tends to show the grain through more and I love the look of my Klipsch 3.1's with black laquer. I plan to try the veneer out on some pieces of birch plywood first to get the hang of it, but I have a lot of confidence in my abilities. Thanks for the input. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Malcolm is right...if you have never done this before, learn all you can about it and do some practicing first...on something that isn't critical. Keep in mind that rosewood is one of the "oily", or "waxy" woods, and that laquers don't like that...over time they tend to alligator because of it...as the oil in the wood works to the surface...it MAY make the laquer want to separate from the wood grain, too...that is why I personally prefer an oil finish on woods like rosewood, ebony, and, especially Teak!! But laquered rosewood IS very pretty! BTW...urethanes are classified as laquers too...all "clear" popular non-oil protective finishes tend to be classified as such over time. It is a very loosely-used term...covers a vast amount of actual finishes. If a laquer is used, MY preference is a semi-gloss, or even better, a satin one...on rosewood...because you get the added color and grain pronouncement, but it still feels and appears to be wood at the surface....instead of a finish OVER wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 I'm gonna say the same thing as the folks above. Any home building project has a problem not faced in the engineering world. Your final product is a first effort. Making a prototype, even a small one, first, is worth the effort as a learning project. There is not much in the world you don't do better the second time around. Which is why I wind up doing many projects twice, and not that I really want to. It is humbling. Even in the world of art, there are study pieces, or first drafts. In the world of grinding mirrors for telescopes, they say that it is better to first grind a 3 inch mirror and then a 6 inch mirror; rather than trying to grind the 6 inch first. So do find a small speaker box and put on some less expensive veneer, perhaps walnut. Just to learn the process and pitfalls. As far as pitfalls: My first effort with veneer suffered because there was a little piece of sawdust trapped in the glue. That put a bump under the veneer. When sanding the final product, I sanded through the paper thin veneer at that spot. Grrr. Another pitfall was to use the environmental friendly contact cement. It just doesn't work as well as the hazardous stuff. I don't know if the bad stuff is available. There is potential problem with applying and trimming overhanging veneer which has glue on it. You have to let the glue dry totally and even then, there is some contamination of the surface which is at 90 degrees. Again, you only pick up on the problems, and learn, in the first, prototype project. You also have to learn to use the knife to trim the edges, and see what the oil or lacquer finish looks like. Please let me suggest you take a piece of plywood, maybe 6 inchs by 6 inches, apply some of the rosewood veneer to all six sides, and finish it. The rosewood will not cut exactly like the walnut. Again, a learning issue. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 1, 2003 Author Share Posted January 1, 2003 Thanks Builder and Gil, I will take your advice. Builder, how much oil could be in 1/16" veneer? Is it enough to be a problem with laquer? Would it be the same problem with Urethane? I also like a finish that's in the wood instead of on top. In the homes I build, we use Watco Danish oil on all the interior hardwood trim. I've noticed that the oil finish actually dulls the grain of certain woods like maple and birch. On Oak, the oil first sinks into the grain and then bleeds out for a long time and many wipe downs before we get it all off. I'm leaning towards a harder, sealed type finish rather than oil for these reasons. But I always welcome input. Thanks, Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 Greg.... Rosewood is one of the MORE densely-grained of the popular exotic hardwoods. It and Ebony are very similarly-grained in this aspect. and within that grain structure lies the problem. Laquers sprayed-on just don't want to grip the grain as well because they dry before "setting into" that tight grain structure. Add to that the "oilyness" or "waxiness" of the wood itself...and it can create problems getting a good adherance of the finish with the surface fiber structure of the wood. When spraying finishes on rosewood, most folks dilute the laquer somewhat with a thinner that slows down the first few minutes of the "drying process" in order that the finish has enough "liquid time" so begin soaking into the tight grain somewhat in order to get a getter "grip" on the wood's surface fibers. If using a brush to apply the laquer, and the laquer is a polyurethane, then the brush bristle tips will help to work the finish into the fiber...eliminating this thinning down of the finish needed for the spray-on process. Either way, due to the nature of natural oils/waxes in the wood, there is always still a chance down the road that the leaching out from the wood of these things will cause the laquer to lose its adhesion to the fiber structure over time. And yes, if the actual thickness of the rosewood is 1/16th inch, it still has plenty of oils/waxes in it to do this over time....even thinner veneer can do it. One other thing...if you have never had a rosewood splinter before...fair warning...the wood is brittle across its fiber...easily breaks...meaning the splinter will easily break too. Plus it is a very irritating wood to your endodermis...but that is actually a good thing...because it will fester up rapidly and then it can normally be "squeezed-out" through its original entry opening...which is the BEST way to deal with it...because if you just try to pull it out, it will normally break under the skin...then you are in for an irritating wait...or you have to dig it out!!...just a bit of "been there, done that"...for ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 1, 2003 Author Share Posted January 1, 2003 Thanks Builder. It almost sounds like if I use a laquer, that brush applying a greater number of coats that are thinned down a little might work best. But if not laquer, what type of oil finish would you recommend? Also, what about the oil dullness that I've seen on my hardwood trim? I would really like the grain to jump out, almost 3d like. Thanks for the warning on the splinters, I've done my fair share of surgery on myself, so I know what you mean. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted January 1, 2003 Share Posted January 1, 2003 oil finish for rosewood...same thing...boiled linseed oil...but many use NO finish on Rosewood at all, other than using a light flooding of boiled linseed oil on the wood surface, and some light hand-sanding with 500 grit while the oil is on it...then wiping down the extreme excess of this fine wood-dust/oil slurry...and going into a French Polishing technique or, even better, a bare heel of the hand rubbing...this fills the fine pores of the wood with this slurry, and smooths it up just like glass...then letting this set up for a few days to a week, give it another clean soft rag buffing, and apply a fine furniture wax or something like gunstock wax over it. Remember, Rosewood ALREADY IS full of a waxy/oily substance to begin with! The wax just keeps it from evaporating off...and provides even more protection to the wood from humidity and water damage. You gotta leave something that is leaking sitting for alot more time on oiled and waxed rosewood or ebony...before it causes any ring you have a problem removing!! The natural oils/waxes in the wood just don't let water stains set in rapidly!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 2, 2003 Author Share Posted January 2, 2003 Thanks for sharing the details, it sounds like a nice method of oiling. I think I'll try a couple of different methods on some of the scrap pieces of veneer. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg928gts Posted January 7, 2003 Author Share Posted January 7, 2003 I got the Rosewood veneer today and WOW, beautiful stuff. I only peeked in the box to look at the inside of the roll, didn't want to take it out yet, but I think this could be very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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