Cables for tubes and horns

[Deang]

I've been reading again, probably to my own detriment.

Conventional wisdom in the cable industry is to bring capacitance and inductance down as low as possible in a cable. However, I kept running across blips on the radar screen regarding impedance matching between cables and components. Unfortunately, nothing really in depth -- and without explanation of how impedance relates to the other sought after design parameters. Going through just about every major manufacturer's 'introduction' and FAQ sections -- I never once found the issue of impedance matching discussed, as discussion always centered around low capacitance and low inductance.

Now, whether this is true or not, I don't really know (yet), but I read that as capacitance and inductance go down, impedance leaves the realm of single digits, and begins to climb. Some seem to feel that low capacitance cables may not be the end all -- ESPECIALLY if you are running a tube amp with horns.

So, the search was on for cables with high capacitance, and it didn't take long. I got plently of hits on the Asylum, and so started there. This lead to a few dozen posts in reference to Alpha Core's Goertz solid core ribbon cable.

Pricing is more than reasonable. I just ordered a set of the 6' M1 13 awg cables terminated with Rhodium spades, and jumpers with integral spades -- all for a whopping $124.00. You can DIY this cable and save even more. There is also a 30 day money back guarantee -- which I will be using if they suck.

I'll have these soon and will let you all know what I think early next week.

http://www.alphacore.com/mifaq.html

[mobile homeless]

I tried the Goertz solution and commented favorably in a post awhile back. I think I posted a few pics of the silver IC I used as well.

Ultimately, I felt my current(sic) wire to be more natural sounding with better air and a more extended presentation, without sounding aggressive. I found this interesting since I was running vampire CCC copper (DIYCable Superlative) and the Jon Risch inspired take "Twisted Cross Connect" a Belden cable mod. In my 2A3 System with Cornwalls, these offered the best overall performance compared to the Goertz option at hand. I was seriously considering moving to Goertz before this trial.

kh

[Deang]

Though I really like the sound of silver on the RF-7's, especially the treble -- I think overall it takes away a degree or two from their dynamic capabilty. Early listening gives the impression of added smoothness, but after a time it becomes evident that there is also a softening of sorts. There is a cost here with silver. Silver sounds very good, -- but tends to bring them a few notches closer to the dynamics one experiences with good 'dynamic' radiators. Ultimately, I yanked everything and decided to start from square one. The new interconnects were returned, -- and for now -- the Monsters are in until the Goertz' arrive. I'm going back to copper, and hoping I can achieve some of the smoothness I liked about the silver without giving up dynamics. I'm looking for the middle road here. I also ordered some Goertz Mico-purl IC's, which are identical to what you show in the pic -- with the exception being that they are copper.

I tore down one of the RF7's, and disassembled the crossover. I'll be posting pics in another topic and adding some comments as well. I'm definitely, without question -- replacing all of the Monster cable inside my RF7's.

[mobile homeless]

Dont know why you didnt opt for the Twisted Cross Connect parts to build the kits. Seems right up your alley. I have heard more negative things about the MicroPurl from other SET and Horn users (ie my friend that sent down the box of 6SN7). Havent priced anything recently but these wire I have built from parts do VERY well with SET and horns.

kh

[Deang]

That's interesting. I steered away from the Belden design for now based on comments by Mike Bates at the Asylum. He thought the Belden sounded horrible on his horns.

I will eventually get around to trying the Risch design, but I figured since Alpha-Core gives me 30 days to try them -- why not? I'll start with the speaker cable, wait a few days, and then put the Mirco-purls in. I'm surprised by your comment regarding the Mirco-purl, as it seems it should be a great IC for SET.

Have you actually tried the Risch design? I know you use the Superalative from Diycable, and this cable is somewhat different from the Belden 89259.

No offense, and I'm sure you understand this -- but I need to hear them on my system.

[mobile homeless]

Mike Bates? Lord. Look at his horns!

Well, Mike Bates has horns NOTHING like yours. Indeed, I would also say that there are many ways to run Belden. Can you believe after listening to me for 18 months that I would be using wire that sounded HORRIBLE on my speakers? When someone says something like this, the first thing that pops into my mind is: System setup. Application. Method. And WHICH and WHAT Belden configuration?

I think you know me well enough to assume I wouldnt be sticking with this wire if there werent a few things positive. Lord. I have about 24 cables through here, sometimes up to five or six at a time. I can tell you straight out, he is wrong except perhaps in his system.

A-B against Kimber, AudioQuest, Transparent, MIT, Solid Core 18AWG DIY, CAT 5 DIY, HOME DEPOT 12AWG w/RS Gold Spades, GOERTZ, MAGNET DIY, I preferred the TWisted Cross Connect. I will say that Kimber 8TC is a good all around cable that does less wrong then most any.

I dont use Belden IC (although I have one pair of DIYCable The Fat Ones which has two different types of Belden. I am mainly using Vampire Wire Continous Cast Copper 20awg. The Belden is the SPEAKER WIRE in my rig....TWisted in pairs and terminated via Risch method.

kh

[dbflash]

Do you any thoughts about Marigo IC's?

Today I am using all AlphaCore (AG1 speaker wire and Micro Purl AG IC's). The sound is the best I've every had, but I want it to be more "airy" sounding. There are times that I can just about reach into my system and grab the music between the speakers.

I will say a friend who doesn't like Klipsch lent me a pair of JPS or JBS (I think) which is suppose to be a high end IC and it sounded so dark and flat on my system. After 3 days I had to remove them.

Danny

[Deang]

Kelly, I should have clarifed a little. I know Mike's propensity for going over the top with his comments -- the only thing I really focused on was that he thought the Goertz bettered the Risch. I KNOW the Belden sounds good -- a million people can't be wrong. I've only run across two people on all forums I read that didn't like it.

I find the Goertz intriquing. I just want to try it with the RF-7's. I may also try the silver mirco-purls before making my mind up about them. I will definitely be staying with copper to the speakers.

[Erik Mandaville]

Deang:

I think your new cable kit looks great! Hopefully (and likely) it will reward you sound-wise, as well.

I built more than one variation of the J. R. Crossconnect, but but all the stuff seperately. I think it's now available as a kit. For me, they (the cross-connected coax)didn't have the brilliance I was looking for on the top end. Even the very inexpensive Romex cable I made was better, in my opinion.

I just finished making a cable this morning, that I'm going to send to a friend, who is also an editor for a well-known audio mag. This consists of CAT 5 cable, which has four, teflon-insulated-pair conductors inside a blue PVC jacket. The jacket is removed, and the four twisted pair are simply braided and terminated to your liking. I ALWAYS make the habit of a very solid, mechanical crimp, and then seal the joint with high quality solder. Sorry, but that solder compromises to performance of the cable is utter nonsense to me. Every connection in my preamp and amps is soldered -- and for good reason: It provided outstanding mechanical stability, and seals the exposed copper, silver-clad, whatever lead against the invasion of oxidation and other contaminants. The CAT 5, with superior teflon insulation, as Belden also uses, is very balanced top-to-bottom. I got the idea from some others who had used the stuff, but were braiding up very, very thick overall configurations, consisting of many braided conductors -- which offers low inducatance at the expensive of enormous capacitance. Some of those DIYers even had to construct compensating networks for their speakers to keep amplifier from oscillating -- that's a bad sign! With high efficiency horns and very low amp power, heavy conductors simply aren't needed! I also have some 28AWG magnet wire terminated with Radio Shack spades that sound way too good for how much they cost! They are maybe just a little shy in the low end, though...

I'm now using the cross-connnected stuff with a pair of bass-reflex mini-monitors I built out of ceramic flue tile. God! I listened to those things yesterday afternoon, and had forgotten how good they sounded! Anyway, long story short, I didn't care that much for the cross-connect geometry, but some people really like very much. Just one of those things!

Anyway, please report on you cable project -- it looks like a great kit!

Erik

[mobile homeless]

"For me, they (the cross-connected coax)didn't have the brilliance I was looking for on the top end. "

Very telling statement in the grand scheme of things and basically points to sort of an across the board difference in the perception of the proper or natural reproduction of music/sound. What is interesting and more than a bit confusing is the fact that we share so much equipment with almost totally different takes on the qualities to shoot for or what is coming from the very gear to begin with. Ironically, I found the Cross Connected Belden to be more "naturally" extended than the Goertz wire. On a side note, what kind of coax did you use?

Just to show you how different these perceptions and take on sound can be.

kh

[Randy Bey]

" just finished making a cable this morning, that I'm going to send to a friend, who is also an editor for a well-known audio mag. This consists of CAT 5 cable, which has four, teflon-insulated-pair conductors inside a blue PVC jacket. The jacket is removed, and the four twisted pair are simply braided and terminated to your liking. I ALWAYS make the habit of a very solid, mechanical crimp, and then seal the joint with high quality solder. Sorry, but that solder compromises to performance of the cable is utter nonsense to me."

Basically what I have, except I use 9 pairs, with three three-way braids braided again (hence the 9 wires). I also believe strongly in a good mechanical connection followed by good hot solder.

I find it hard to get worked up about how much better my system is going to sound by replacing my speaker cable.

And I tried the Goertz flat speaker cable for a week, sent it back in for a refund. It was way too bright for me.

[mobile homeless]

Randy, which Goertz did you buy and at what position? I wouldnt have called the models I listened to bright per say. Was the wire run in?

kh

[Randy Bey]

I got the MI-2 speaker cable. It was as broken in as a week of constant play would produce. I would have kept it longer but their return policy forbade any longer testing.

[Erik Mandaville]

Hey, Kelly:

Yeah, it's kind of strange regarding our equipment and the way we listen to them. I mentioned in another post (to Leo, I think, on his new Moondogs)that my continued quest for good high frequency extension is probably the result of an unfortunate bit of hearing loss. I also have pretty bad tinnitus (...think that's spelled right...) in my left ear, which is probably the result of too much loud music years ago. I love to hear high frequency transients associated with things like cymbals, fingers moving around guitar fret boards, and other such stuff that makes for me a more 'real' or 'present' listening experience.

on the Cross-connected cable: I've built a couple of versions of this, one with rather poor quality coax, and another that had a foamed teflon-insulated center conductor, and a blue (likely PVC, which is a no-no)jacket. Center conductor was bare stranded copper, and the shield (95% coverage)was also a bare copper braid -- which I prefer to more common tinned copper braid. This was cable I had on hand, and don't even remember where I got it -- a local electronics store, I think. The cable was measured on a Heathkit capacitance tester as having approx. 13pfd/foot, which is lowever, I believe than the Belden 89259 cable. The Belden is a really high quality coax, with (as you know) an outer jacket that is also Teflon. And maybe that would have been a deciding factor. In any case, this CAT 5 cable I've been working with is really nice sounding.

Hey, tell me the length of your speaker cables, Kelly. I'll make you a pair for you Cornwalls, including some spades on the end that will fit the narrow openings on the crossover binding posts. If you don't like them, you can just send 'em back or give them to a friend, or something...and if you do like them, then great!

Erik

[mobile homeless]

I experimented with making the Chris VenHaus Cat 5 cables but never got the full 27 version out of respect for my own sanity. I used a more simple CAT 5 option for awhile made from my yards of leftover CAT5 but have since moved on.

If you are willing to make an 8ft pair of the version you have enjoyed and found to work, that would be GREAT. I would love to hear it and compare and then I could possibly send it to others with tube systems and vintage horns but with no inclination to give wire options a chance. I think it's an excellent idea!

Let me know what I can do or what you need. Drop me a mail. Sounds like a very interesting experiment and one that is worthwhile. Obviously, it is a really nice thing to offer as well.

Kelly

[Erik Mandaville]

Kelly:

No problem -- I'll pick the stuff up from Radio Shack. If I don't here back from that guy I made the latest pair of CAT 5 for, I'll just send you the ones intended for him. It's not as if he's hurting as far as speaker cable and ICs go. I think his cable of choice is Nordost Flatline, which is probably similar in ways to the CAT 5. This nearly finished cable is probably around 11 feet long.

And the picture you posted is THE very one! that much braiding is just totally not necessary for low-power amplification -- in my opinion. If people are having to put filters on their speakers to prevent oscillation, there is an intrinsic problem. My much easier and less massive version has worked great on Lowthers, and Tony Glynn (former CEO of Lowther-Amrerica) now uses it instead of his Jena Labs cable.

If you've already made a version of this, what your hear may not be much of a surprise. But what the heck, never hurts to try it out...I got the connectors I need to try an IC version, which might actually work well.

Hey, I sent you an email (or personal message -- can't remember which) about your ASUSAs. Try to get those things up and running!

Erik

[Deang]

Somebody needs to put a bag over that cable. Yeesh.

"The CAT 5, with superior teflon insulation, as Belden also uses, is very balanced top-to-bottom. I got the idea from some others who had used the stuff, but were braiding up very, very thick overall configurations, consisting of many braided conductors -- which offers low inducatance at the expensive of enormous capacitance."

Low inductance is achieved by tightly wrapping the negative and positive strands together -- as tight as possible (Kimber 4TC, 8TC, Cardas Twinlink, Quadlink, Cross, etc). The closer and tighter they are together, the lower the inductance. Numerous, multiple strand (like the CAT5 cable above) will result in even lower inductance, however, like you point out -- capacitance begins to climb. Now, high capacitance is not a really a bad thing, because as the capacitance goes up, the impedance characteristics of the cable begin to drop, and impedance gets closer to what the speakers and amp are working at. Many believe this results in the most transparent interface. The Goertz cables are designed with this very thing in mind -- low inductance and impedance, at the expense of high capacitance. Even better is that they don't have to be butt ugly to accomplish it.

High capacitance cables are a problem for some solid state amps, but for tube amps -- it's a complete non-issue. Below is a description from the Goertz site of the oscillation problems found in some amps when using high capacitance cables.

The impedance of voice coils in dynamic loudspeakers and their crossover networks rises with frequency, causing a corresponding decrease in audio output at high frequencies. At low audio frequencies a voice coil behaves almost like a purely resistive load but at for example 20 kHz its impedance may rise to more than 10 times the DC resistance. This is mainly due to self-inductance, which causes the almost purely inductive impedance to rise even further above 20 kHz.<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O />

Unfortunately the feedback loop in certain solid state amplifiers does not satisfy the Nyquist or Bode criterion for stability. The amplifier may at times exhibit gain band widths in the internal feedback loop in the megaHertz order, meaning that things may start happening above the audible range. The problem arises when this type of amplifier is connected with loudspeakers that exhibit high impedance at high frequencies, via an otherwise ideal low impedance matched cable. Under certain circumstances, instead of stabilizing the gain via the internal feedback loop as intended for a low impedance output, the amplifier is turned into a HF power oscillator operating at a frequency well above the audible range. This may load the amplifier excessively, resulting in higher than normal operating temperature or overload shutdown.

Our remedy is to place a resistive load across the speaker terminals, which becomes effective at frequencies well above the audible range. Tests have shown that a 0.1 microfarad capacitor in series with a 10 ohm resistor will do the trick if applied across the speaker terminals. The combination RC Link also called a Zobel network, is supplied free of charge by Alpha-Core to be applied when needed.

Randy didn't like the Goertz. I'm bummed, as I was hoping the Goertz would be the magic bullet for tubes & horns.

Kelly, is the 22 gauge conductor in the 85259 stranded or solid? Still, it's basically a coax design, and uses the braid as the return path. I guess the only thing that matters is how it sounds. I guess I should build some, it shouldn't be a problem selling them off if I don't like them.

[mobile homeless]

I didnt like the Goertz enough to keep it either. I thought I mentioned this? I was really moving toward getting the Goertz wire throughout my whole system. That being said, it was GOOD WIRE. IT just didnt replace my current lineup.

On RAndy's comments, the wire needs to be BROKEN IN and one week might not be enough, although some say the Goertz needs less break-in time.

For those of you that dont believe in cable breakin, may I wish you a Happy New Year with advice to stick to ye olde zip cord with a smile. Cable can sound like a psilocybin Pony before broken in with closed in highs and confusion. Sometimes when people make comments, I wonder if the cable has been run in or not. AGAIN, let me promote THE CABLE COMPANY which lets you audition fully broken in cable for a nominal fee fully refundable minus 15% that goes towards the purchase of any cable or product from them (They carry over 160 types).

Dont count me as promoting DIYCable either, as I hold no association with them at the moment but that is neither here nor there as far as the products.

I tend to like solid core cables. I have posted this a number of times. On the other hand, I have to admit the Belden 89259 is STRANDED (22awg, 1 conductor, 1 Coax, RG Type 59/U, 7x30 Stranding, Bare Copper, Foam FEP Insulation, Braid Shield, FEP Outer Jacket ). I think a lot of the postive comes from the grounding method and termination, not to mention the foam/shield/and jacket. I held a totally open mind when I got this stuff and only had it to take hi-rez pictures for a client. Audrey and I sat mouth agape at the improvement over the previous wire (a DIY mix of RS 18AWG solid core with 24awg MAGNET). It was one of those times where the wire represented the same type of change as a whole different AMP or PREAMP. Remember, however, this was with a TOTAL wire change in the system. The IC had Vampire CCC copper with a DIYCable proprietary construction. This setup beat the Goertz option to my ears (as well as the various DIY cables I had worked up over the past few years).

kh

[Deang]

Cable break in:

I know you know this already, but for the benefit of those who haven't heard it -- most of what 'electricity' is -- is already in the conductor. Electrons don't 'flow', they are already in the cable. As current is passed, the electrons become excited and bump into each other -- which advances the electrical field. In a new conducter, the electrons are tightly set, and as current is applied and they begin to move around -- over some time, are able to move around more freely. I believe the same thing applies here with speaker break-in. It's not the cones, diaphrams, or surrounds that are contributing in a major way to this. I believe it's the conductors -- internal wiring, and copper in the voice coils.

Some believe if a cable is removed, and remains unused for a period of time, or is removed and bent -- then break-in starts all over again. Interesting idea put forward here -- I don't know what to think about it as of yet.

Strange to me that you prefer solid core, yet all of your cables are stranded. I guess you really prefer stranded:)

I read that you actually liked the Goertz, and were ready to cable your whole system with it -- until you heard the Belden cables, at which time you changed your mind. Did I misunderstand?

[mobile homeless]

IT is amusing. Almost all my previous wire preferences and recs are for solid core, although I got great results with Transparent Cable which is multistrand as well but has other parameters that come into play. Transparent Cable, which is some of the BEST wire I ever had with SS and SOME tube amps, sounds VERY slow and ponderous via SET. IT was a terrible match.

But yes, all my cable except one of the runs of The Fat Ones which uses a mix of solid core Belden 89248 and 89529. But the Vampire CCC is also stranded but damn if this cable does not sound VERY extended and open with a lot of air. The whole lot works well together.

I had this mix in my system when auditioning the Goertz. Still, you might like the Goertz and a sale would be VERY easy. A note to others, Audiogon has some good deals on used cables as well. Just remember the hazards of oxidation with older wires.

btw, I still count the original Purist Audio Designs Maximus Water Cable to be some of the BEST wire for SET I have ever heard.

kh