muleman Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Hello all, My recently integrated home theater is up an running. It consists of the following components: > FORTE II (ioled oak) fron L and R > RC-3 series 2 center > KG 1 surround L and R > Marantz SR6200 HT receiver > Toshiba progressive scan DVD > HD digital cable box (scientific atlanta) > Hitachi 67: widscreen HD monitor (57SWX20B) I had initiated a discussion about the right center channel to match the Forte II's previously on this forum. Got some good advise before purchasing the RC3 series 2. Of course, many would think this is OK while any would think that I violated the laws of perfect timbre matching. End result is that I believe that this center blends quite nicely with the forte II's. I felt the RC7 was too heavy to rest on top of the TV, and the price delta between the rc3 and rc7 was too large for me. I am not considering adding a subwoofer to this HT system. Originally I thought that my Forte ii's would suffice for this application, as the MArantz 6200 vectors the low freq to the front l and r channels in the absence of a sub. I dow find that, when watching movies, I dont sense that gut wrentching LFE that Dolby digital and DTS offers. IT should be noted that, when playing music in stereo through my beloved forte's, there is no need for a sub Now the chouice - because of the limited space remaining inthe width of my room for a sub, I have been looking at the KSW 10 and the RSW 10. Once again there is a huge difference in price. I would like to know just how diffeent these two subs would be inthe HT application. I really like that rsw-10 but I would like to know if buying this would be overkill (realizing that the word overkill is not in the audiophile's vocabulary). My other question it this: I find significant price variations in the rsw 10 between "stone and brick" dealers and internet dealers. The difference is about $350 bucks (non trivial). The internet dealers advertise that their equipment is brand new in the box. The rsw 10 is doable for me at the internet price but not for the stone and brick reatil price. However I am concerned about getting a refurb unit or no manufactures warrenty. I would appreciate feedback of my two questions. MULEMAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muleman Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 corrections - my TC is 57" vice 67" and "I am now considering adding a subwoofer" vice "I am not considering adding a subwoofer" There are some other typos as well. Seems the more I use computers, the worse my typing gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Muleman, while God may have created all men equal, man certainly did not create all subwoofers equal. Bend TheEAR(s) (Forum Resident Sub & Maple Leaf Guru) to your question and he will be the first to say that while the differences in subs can be profound... putting an "adequate" sub into your HT is likely to strain the poke of the average muleskinner. The difference between a KSW-10 and an RSW-10 is profound... so much so that the RSW-10 should be at the bottom of your range (not the top) if the passion you seem to have for bass is to be realized. The RSW-10 has a BASH amp that adds more slam than a KSW-10 could hope for... but both bottom out at about 29 Hz... which may be low for a mule's bottom... but is not much lower than the 32 Hz your mains deliver now. At the price point you seem to be inferring, your bass and pocketbook desires are more likely to be realized with a DIY approach... or by wiring up a used stereo amp to be a subwoofer amp (easy to do) and buy a cost effective passive amp that can go low and keep pace with your Forte II mains... and for my money, that's been SVS (with a Samson amp). May you soon enjoy being the bass person you were meant to be! =HornEd PS: I have a custom "horizontalized" KLF-30 resting its 105 lbs atop my Mitsubishi 65" RPHD TV for over a year with no sign of protest... and that is a good deal more weight than either centers you were considering. Since upwards of 75% of the total Dolby Digital sound on a DVD comes through the center channel... your RC-3 II is the most important speaker in your system. The Forte II's get the nod when playing music cd's for then the center is only acting as a bridge between mains. Enjoy... with understanding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 http://www.ctaz.com/~moonlite/subvmp.html Try these kits. It's basically a screw it together for the complete kit. for the drivers and plans, you build and finish the box. If you do that, it could be any shape you want, if the internal volume is correct. None of these are powered. You will have to get an outboard amp. They do not need the equalization built into many subwoofer plate amps. You can use Harrison Labs F-Mods for a low pass crossover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muleman Posted January 19, 2003 Author Share Posted January 19, 2003 HornEd, Your reply was very informative (as well as very humorous). I really dont want to build my own. And based on your advice, I believe that I am going to keep targeting that rsw-10. I dont mind paying the money, but I need to resolve the internet .v. retail purchase. With respect to the RC3 II, I guess I have left myself some room to grow. IF a good Academy comes around, perhaps I'll take a shot at it, just for "kicks", y'know, being the muleman that I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Thanks, muleman, my favorite ex-wife would probably say "muleman" fits me better than "HornEd"... for I tried over a dozen subwoofers configurations before my present 7' dual SVS Ultra sub tower... even to the point of using five Klipsch subs in a 6.1 system! Now, if that doesn't earn mule ears on a Klipsch head I don't know what does. I understand your "Forte-II-Love" affair since I have one with Klipschorns in the corner and a Belle in the middle (a la PWK)... with a pair of Cornwalls on the sides and an Academy bringing up the rear (effects). Using the stacked Ultras provides a round 16" footprint which not only saves floorspace, but also allows maximum advantage from a single corner. Since you indicated a lack of floorspace for a sub, you might consider one of the more economical SVS PCi's with internal BASH amps can go much lower than the RSW crowd with greater authority. The RSW-15 has more mid bass "slam" but it comes at a much higher cost, requires more floorspace, and still doesn't get as low. Besides getting down to 16 Hz with authority, my Ultras provide a transparent integration with either my Legend-based HT or the Klipschorn based audio wheter in three-channel stereo or multi-channel CD's. The 12" drivers are quick enough to keep up with the music... a trait that is also a particualry strong point of the RSW family. Of course, there is no center for your system like another Forte II for HT... but, from my own experience, the much heralded Academy makes a great center for three-channel stereo music... but, IMHO, falls to only good for HT because of its timbre matching shortfall. But, it's probably a closer match than you have for the Forte II's. The Reference line is a wonderful addition to the Klipsch line... but is simply not "voiced" like your Fortes. The latest reference level data from Dolby Digital suggests that subwoofers be able to attain 115 dB for HT... and 121.5 dB for professional theaters. It takes a doubling in power to raise an subwoofer's SPL's by 6 dB. The reason for the high SPL potential in your subs is that, in the Dolby Digital example, sounds that are very lound usually last for less than a second... thus, there is no damage to one's ears (or so they tell us) but an indispensible attribute of realism in a "LIVE" sound has been met. That is a factor that few people plan for in buying subwoofers. That means that there is no single subwoofer I know of under $2k (not counting DIY) that can really do the whole job for awesome HT... and I am a person who uses the "awesome" word sparsely. If you have read many of my posts on the HT subject, muleman, you know that having an adequate subwoofer is second only to having an adequate front center channel... and I prefer timbre-matched elegance to forced speaker induced ambience. But, hey, people have to build a system that works for them... and that is a primary contributer to commiting us all to the long, mega-buck, Klipsch-based upgrade trail. Clearly, getting a solid idea about the kind of HT and music target system you desire goes a long way to making that upgrade path more cost effective. The difference between a well-balanced system with adequate front center and subwoofer array becomes an audio-thing-of-beauty... may it be yours! =HornEd PS: Of course, PWK's approach in what is now called the Heritage line was to provide all the range one needs to enjoy almost all the notes of a classical orchestra. So, I use the tall sub array with the Klipschorns when I am on a bottom-scraping organ binge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muleman Posted January 20, 2003 Author Share Posted January 20, 2003 HornEd, you lost me on a couple of acronyms - what are "SVS PCi's with internal BASH amps". I would like to look into these. Are they a Klipsch product? MULEMAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Sorry, muleman. SVS is a small company that makes excellent subwoofers at very attractive prices. No, sadly, they are not Klipsch but the person who designs the subwoofers, Tom Vodhanel (the "V" in SVS) is a long time Klipsch speaker owner and a jewel to do business with. Your email questions will be answered honestly and quicikly. I also own five Klipsch subwoofers that are now in storage. I have a pair of SVS Ultras fired by a 1,000 watt Samson pro-style amp... and, believe me, it is a study in subwoofer adequacy in my listening area. SVS can be found at http://www.svsubwoofers.com/ and they only do business over the Internet. If you do an SVS search on this Forum search engine you will find many, many satisfied customers. The reason for suggesting them is that they have subwoofers that will give you the performance you indicated at a price that few can touch. Small companies just don't have the overhead that running a mature company requires. So, it's a good time to buy. You might also try searching the Internet for "SVS subwoofer" and check out the reviews. I wish Klipsch had something to beat it... Klipsch has some of the best subwoofers they've ever made... but the price/performance ratio may not be to your liking. I'm going to be out of pocket on a business trip... I'll look for your progress upon my return. =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Oh, Oh,..... HornEd! I tagged onto your posts this afternoon as I enjoyed your comments on the Dipole thread. Paydirt again! I have not posted it here yet, but my intended to marry to my Klipsch speakers is an SVS sub! It's amazing the convergence of what I want to do as I've surfed different forums! I've got a good 600W amp that I intend to drive it with. Which one (SVS flavor, that is) would you recommend to go with RF-7 mains and center (and (sob) RB-5II suffounds)?? Gordon Hot on HornEd's trail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Gordon Like Horney Ed : ) states Tom V is a Klipsch fan himself and knows about all Klipsch products. He was VERY VERY helpful to work with to determine the best SVS sub to fit your needs. You not only need to consider what speakers you are using, but also cubic feet of space your room is etc. Check the archives here, there are a lot of happy SVS owners. Since SVS sells direct, it is impossible to go to a store to hear them. You may be able to find one in your area (off this BBS) who would let you hear there system. Email Tom at techsupport@svsubwoofers.com JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Thanks, j-malotky! I've got SVS bookmarked and will follow up w/them! Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Well, Gordon, SVS will give you all the power you expect and then some. I have dual Ultras powered by 1000 watt Samson feeding them each 500 watts. Your 600 watt amp should do just fine. Unless price is a very large concern, I would recommend a single SVS Ultra to get you started on the road to reference level. That the Ultra is the best price/performance money can buy seems to be a consensus of opinion from those of us who love the "live" sound of Klipsch. Your Ultra will cover an orchestra's range better than anything at twice its price... and provide a transparent meld with your speakers. It seems a bit uncanny at first, but be prepared for a special bass experience. The Ultra is largely free of the harmonics that plague lesser subs and, thus, under 85 Hz it is directionless. Hence, when one of your Klipsch speakers plays the sounds associated with a bass passage, the deep bass will seem to be coming from your Klipsch rather than the SVS. Essentially, sounds above 85 Hz can be interpreted by the ear (and brain) as being directional... so your brain associates the non-directional bass with its above 85 Hz counterpart. One Ultra should bring a lot of musical enjoyment... and go along way to HT bliss... but it actually takes two to get to bliss... well at least bliss in a minor key for those who see Bliss as a Heavenly prospect. =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Thanks HornEd! "One Ultra should bring a lot of musical enjoyment... and go along way to HT bliss... but it actually takes two to get to bliss... well at least bliss in a minor key for those who see Bliss as a Heavenly prospect." Actually, after I posted this question to you (Which SVS?), I surfed more of your posts then went to SVS to browse. SVS Ultra is IT for me! I expect Major Bliss from this! Nancy, however is expecting Minor Pain. As you say, it takes two, so will probably end up at least Minor Bliss Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Be at peace, Sweet Nancy, for a properly set up SVS Ultra will provide adequate bass that is pleasant even upon the genteel ear of a composer of "Loud & Soft" music. When my four year old son was asked what kind of music he liked, he answered, "I don't know what it is called, but it's sorta loud and soft music." He was referring to the classical music his dad favored... especially the piano... for it was my first failed musical instrument. Fortunately, my son has perfect pitch and so was slid toward the slide trombone. He was a member of a Texas high school band that won back-to-back championships and in the popular Dixieland Jazz band as well. And now, 30 years after the "loud & soft" comment, he still toots his peashooter, strums his acoustic & electric guitars... and toodles a tune on a bamboo sax or flute. Reference level bass for professonal theaters is 121.5 dB at 20 Hz... and that's what it takes to play the lowest note you will likely encounter on a Dolby Digital DVD. But again, Sweet Nancy, those loud notes are held for less than a second... they are gone before you can sustain ear damage... but they create a sense of realism that brings music or HT to life! A subwoofer that stands out from the music is one that is not well suited for your purposes. You will not be dissappointed... and neither will Gordon. =HornEd PS: The blissful look that Sweet Nancy is likely to have when she embraces the Ultra as a friend may work well for an album cover. As a photographer, I would like to see a Sweet Nancy photo that was taken when she was blissfully caught up in her work. Since her music spins a hammock... her photo should include a Sweet Nancy Smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 The Sweet one is okay with the Ultra w/one condition - that SHE holds the remote! I'll just have to check it's reference levels when she's not home! Gordon Tends to get carried away at times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Ah, it seems another level of the audio mystery needs to be unfolded. To be properly set-up a sound system an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) meter is an absolute must. The one most folks use can be purchased at Radio Shack for under $50. It is impossible for the human ear to correctly calibrate your sound system. It is also recommended that you get a set-up disk, Avia is probably the most popular on the Forum and can be obtained on the Internet. My preference is to set up a system using 75 Hz as the standard for all speakers except the subwoofer. Many people prefer to set them at 85 dB but I find that excessive for Sweet ___________'s (fill in the blank) that I have known. The subwoofer is usually set ten or more dB higher. I recommend setting all speakers to small which will free them from their low bass chores and allow them to track mid-bass (over 85 Hz) and above music with greater precision. Your Ultra should handle all the non-directional bass (below 85 Hz) just fine. Oh, and Nancy, Hz is Hertz a measure of frequency... each of your 88 has a different one! And, dB is decibels... a measure of loudness. Once a system is properly set up, then all speakers are correctly calibrated with one another and you have the best your speakers can offer from the set-up perspective. Then you just use the remote to set a comfortable listening level for the source of the moment and there should not be a volume (SPL) problem. =HornEd PS: Whew... do you think I've earned my postage and handling fee yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 After a great system set-up description (into my keeper file), HornEd asked: "PS: Whew... do you think I've earned my postage and handling fee yet?" HornEd, You earned that quite a while ago! You're working on the "special bonus disc" now! I appreciate your posts. Don't know how you find the time to hang so strong here! The receiver that I'm probably going to start out with - Denon AVR-3803 - has adjustable crossover @ 40, 60,80,100,or 120 Hz. That's one reason that receiver is so attractive to me since I won't have an outboard crossover to play with. It's got 110w x 7 + sub pre. I've got an old Haffler XL280 (180w/channel) that I'm going to play with to see if it makes a difference on the mains (RF-7's). If it does, I'm also going to dust off a Haffler DH-200 that I might bridge to mono-mode for 200w to center (RF-7 HornEd'ed). We'll see. The 110w on the Denon should be more than enough for the Klipsch stuff in our small room, but I'm a believer in over-amping to get better response even at lower levels. Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 Gordon, I wish I could say it's all dedication to the sunnier side of Klipsch... but actually I need to be somewhere else and haven't been well enough to travel... so, rather than dwell in misery I try to do something worthwhile with my time. Thanks for making my time worthwhile. I hope Nancy enjoyed my jargon translation. =HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon Groff Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 She did, very much! She leaves the tehnical stuff to me. That's fair, I leave the musical stuff to her(which is a very good thing for all of us)! I hope you're feeling better to get to wherever you have to go! Our thoughts (and prayers if you like) are with 'ya! Gordon 'n Nancy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manufanatic Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 My other question it this: I find significant price variations in the rsw 10 between "stone and brick" dealers and internet dealers. The difference is about $350 bucks (non trivial). The internet dealers advertise that their equipment is brand new in the box. The rsw 10 is doable for me at the internet price but not for the stone and brick reatil price. However I am concerned about getting a refurb unit or no manufactures warrenty. If you are still interested in a RSW contact sound distributors (sounddistributors.com) and punch in x708 John will give you a great price and they are factory authorized. I recently purchased the RC 3 series 2 for 219 from them. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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