JCturboT Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Well guys,as promised, here is my review of the Manley Stingray.With my wife & daughter out of the house it gives Dad the perfect time to listen to some tunes and write this review.Now,I don't have the eloquent writing of Mobile or the ability to translate thoughs to words like Dean but I'll try my best to describe this experience.Here goes... After proper setup and bias adjustment (super simple,by the way) I was off and going.I placed 5 of my reference cds in and was off.First thing I noticed was this was a different sound than I was accustom to.It was the sweet midrange of my old Scott LK-48 with the tightness of Solid State.The volume knob was indexed so I could set it exactly the same for each cd avoiding the need to crank it for the cds I really liked. On several cds at low listening levels I wished it had bass & treble controls as the bass wasn't as strong as at higher listing levels.This is where the old Scott was at its finest with its "compensator" switch to boost highs and lows at low listening.But as the volume rose the Stingray was right there with tight,deep bass but what amazed me the most was the quickeness of the bass.Where the Scott had good bass response it was clumped together-bass notes were smeared as one.Not so with the Stingray-this is the stong suit of this amp. On several cds the highs were again making me wish for a treble control-just too much on the Klipschorns.I figured this was due to a poor recording and truely honest speakers mated to a truely honest amp and most of my early 80s cds just weren't up to the standards of the modern day pressings . So I figured I'd hook up my recently sold Cornwalls (waiting on delivery) to the Stingray and see how they sound.Probably sound even better as the K-horns are really super revealing and besides- gives me one last chance to hear these speakers as they were my reference for the last two years.You can image my surprise as they sounded piercing on the highs and nothing like I was accustom to. Thats weird I though-the Stingray sounds better on the much more revealing K-horns. It got me thinking about things.I had ran the Cornwall exclusively on my Yamaha M-85 Solid state and never,I mean never did they sound like I was hearing with the Stingray.Now I was really curious about how the Yamaha would sound with the Klipschorns but it was still in the repair shop. I gave the repair shop a call and they said the were still working on it.I said I'd be there to pick it up tomorrow,its been 4 months and I can't wait any longer I'd have someone else fix it.He told me it would be fixed and to pick it the next day. This was strange...I picked it up and the owners wife was asking me all sorts of questions about it and said they had been listening to it and it sound marvelous.I think they didn't want to give it up. I paid the $140.00 repair cost brought it home and connected it to my Klipschorns The result- I couldn't believe my ears! This sounds is unbelievable ! Crystal clear highs with deep-deep bass response.The Cornwalls were good,very good but the K-horns were in another league.Its almost like this amp is a tube amp-very relaxed on the top end but with the added bonus of Solid state punch. Was I surprised? You better frigin' believe I was! I hooked up the Cornwalls as well just to hear 'em with the Yamaha.Yep, there was that sound I was hearing in the past. Now I've had several prominent amps in my system over the last couple of months (Manley Stingray,Nakamichi PA-7,Scott LK-48, and a cheap Sony Integrated) and my 1987 Yamaha M-85 has bested them all.Really a great,great match with my Klipschorns. I haven't given up on the Stingray just yet though-I ordered all new JJ electonics EL84s as well as new 12AT7s to maybe "darken" up the highs on the Klipschorns as I've talked to several Stingray owners who gave the thumbs up to the JJs.But,its gonna be hard to top my old Yamaha. This amp may be like Andys H&K 430 or Kellys Eico HF-81-just an undiscoverd amp that really is Klipsch friendly. Questions? Comments? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Jeff, nice review ... I had the (new) SuperAmp in the house here for a while and then sent it on down to Kelly for a listen or two. My reaction to that amp was the same you're describing herewith. If the amp is new, it's going to need a 2-3 month run-in period ... The caps and tubes need to relax a bit ... It's very tough comparing new anything with old vintage stuff. Let's get together soon ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 Chris, Yeah, we'll have to get together soon once everthing is in place. Regarding the Stingray-it is a dealer demo with about 500 hours on it so break-in is a nonissue, at least till I install the JJs. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Jeff, This is honestly hard to believe !! What is your source ? What kind of price range was the Yamaha in when new ? I just find this crazy. Not so much that you find the stingray harsh but the Scott compared to the Yamaha ! Are you sure these tube amps aren't having problems with your source. But like you said maybe the yamaha is just one of those amps !! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 Craig, The Scott was very good sounding at lower listening levels but when the volume started to rise and the music was bass heavy it got lost-repetive kick bass got smeared into one note. On one Anthrax cd where there was some mean bass tracks the woofers were outta control-heavy sound,just not accurate. Now on the Stingray with no compansator switch the bass is a little lacking down low but as soon as you get to mid-volume level you are rewarded with clean and accurate bass-really SS like.This really surprised me about this amp. Now,several reviews had mentioned that with the Sovtek EL84s that if you have bright or very revealing speakers that you might not be happy which I'm willing to bet is most of the problem here-We'll soon find out as I have some of JJ electronics EL84s and 12AT7s coming this week to compare. Onto the Yamaha-when I purchase it new in 1987 it was Yamahas top amp retailing for around $1000-$1100.00.Specs are as follow 260 watts per channel/Class A operation up to 30 watts/three set of speaker outputs and it weighs 50lbs. This is the first time I had any work done to this amp as its really has been bulletproof for what I put it throught these last 13 years-and that has been alot. I've run Polk SDA-SRS IIs,4 Cerwin Vega 380SEs,different Yamaha speakers as well as my friends KLF20s and when he heard them on this amp said the speakers sounded totally different than his Onyko-just much cleaner & clearer. Believe me I'm totally shocked by these findings with this Yamaha-High wattage Solid State sounding great on Klipschorns-Who would have thunk it!!! Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Sounds like another diamond in the rough to me. Trust your ears. Hang on to that Yahmahammer, sell the Manley, and get yourself some SET monoblocks. Is the Stingray an integrated amp? Hmmm, might be something in preamp section that doesn't agree with the horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 25, 2003 Author Share Posted January 25, 2003 Dean, Yes,it is an Integrated amp.For those that haven't seen it here's the pic again. I'm kinda like you Dean-Its one thing to hear/read opinions on things, but if you don't experience them for yourself you really won't know for sure what suits you. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I just got back from the Manley site. I don't want to sound like I'm slamming the amp, because it's really quite a piece, and I'm sure with the right stuff it sounds great. My main problem with it is that it's called an "integrated amp" -- but integrated with what? A volume control knob and some wire? It doesn't really have a preamp section per se. I'm curious, is yours wired in triode or ultralinear. And if you don't mind saying, what are you using for cables? Your K-horns would do much better with this thing using some cables not bigger than 14 AWG. Believe it or not, wired in triode with some 16 gauge solid core would actually warm things up a little. Ideally though, and this is just my opinion -- the best situation is a preamp at the front of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 Dean, Mine is wired in Ultralinear mode producing 50 watts per channel. I am running Radio Shack Megacable 14 guage flat speaker wire to all 4 speakers. Like I said,its not so much the Klipschorns but the Cornwalls that really need a reduction in the highs-just too much.The Klipschorns will be my 2 channel listening speakers full time so I'll thats where I'll base all my judgements.On several of my cds it really doesn't matter what amp I use as they're just poorly recorded and sound as such. We see what delelops with the tube replacement. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe11 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Jeff~ Interesting timing. I've been reading alot regarding the Stingray as I've been considering buying an integrated tube amp for my RF-7's. Also looking at the VTL IT-85 for around the same price. I contacted Manley regarding a dealer in my area, but there isn't one. I was referred to Bill at www.gttgroup.com apparently they handle alot of the east coast. At this point I'm about ready to set up a home demo with Bill. Is your dealer local or if not, who are you dealing with? I would appreciate it if you could provide the home demo terms you have with the unit and also what kind of price you were given. If it's the same guy and you've had good experience with them, I'd be less concerned about buying the product without having a local dealer nearby. Any info would be appreciated. ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 I bet the real difference is in the bass. Any chance the highs are actually similiar, but the K-horns higher bass output is producing a better overall balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 "Need for tune controls" rings a few alarms. They all say distortion and noise. Distortion adds sum and difference frequencies of all harmonics, and the result is a harsh and emphasized upper midrange. This makes low, and very high frequencies recede (it's not your ears). Ultra-linear operation enables lower distortion at higher powers, but adds distortion at lower powers (where Klipsch speakers operate). I've experimented with pentode, ultra-linear, and feedback configurations, as well as triode with no feedback, all with the same tubes and transformers. Pentode, ultra-linear, and feedback all produce more low level distortion than the simple triode with no feedback (Stereophile magazine test reports on any number of amps show similar findings). I will go out on a limb here and suggest that some tube amp manufacturers may try to broaden the base of their appeal by designing in some distortion that the transistor generation of listeners is accustomed to hearing. Without that distortion, listeners will say there is no "slam" (the dynamic expansion that results from im distortion). I suggest you try the Stingray in triode mode, with as little feedback as the circuit will allow. If you intend to keep the amp, you might try completely eliminating the feedback. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 "...Without that distortion, listeners will say there is no "slam" (the dynamic expansion that results from im distortion)." I don't understand. I always thought the symptom of high IM was incoherancy. This is the second time in less than a week I have seen an allusion and correlation made between distortion and perceived, superior low frequency attack. I recently read an article that said the reason users of SET designs claim "great bass" in their systems, is because of the high amounts of distortion that exaggerate the low frequencies. What I don't understand here, is that why isn't there a loss of coherancy and articulation in low frequencies if the distortion levels are in fact so high? I have a friend with who has my old RC-7's biamped with Adcom 555 MKII's. It's a godawful sound. He jokes with me that he likes a little bit of "dirt" in his music. Kind of funny, but maybe he has a point. Maybe some distortion is necessary in order to create a truer "musical" experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 Nice review, Jeff! Good comments and interesting results although I would do some more listening and combos before drawing conclusions to a close. Dean? Do go gettin' wacky! I have had several ADCOM 555 amplifiers. Let me tell you, there is NOTHING worse than a pair of ADCOM GFA-555 amplifiers used in monoblock fashion, even on 86dB speakers! I personally think some of the results above have to do with listening taste as well as experience, something that is forgotten here time and time again, as each post is taken at equal face value. Each of us has a certain level of experience and prejudice we must deal with. More exposure usually does lead to a more refined palete, especially where audio is concerned. Actually, where anything is concerned, whether it be music, audio, art, literature, etc. Of course, the preceeding sentence is not always a given either. Still, I really think Jeff is probably hearing some of the Manley Stingray's faults at hand. Also, tube choice is going to have a lot to do with it here as well. I personally think Jeff wants the kind of bass he has heard with solid state, especially with electronic music. On the other hand, I have found tube amplification to yield more realistic bass more often than not. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 Appreciate all your comments and suggestions guys. I figured I post a bit after yet another Superbowl blowout.Tough to match up to last years game (spoken like a true New Englander) If theres one thing that I've learned from years of working and modifying Automobiles it's this... do one modification at a time,check your results then move onto the next mod-that way you can see what worked as well as what didn't.I do the same with my Audio. I'll try the new input tubes first for a bit before I move onto the outputs.Nice and easy work and unlike my Cars my hands actually stay clean-although my wallet suffers the same fate. Now,I not saying the Stingray is not all that I expected it to be-not at all. What I'm really surprised about is how well my high wattage SS amp sounds based on all the posts about mating Klipsch with SS. Tom Brennan said it best-there are good and bad SS just as well as there's good and bad tube amps. Jeff PS:Shoe-you have mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe11 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Jeff~ Hey thanks for the email you sent. I haven't yet set up an audition for the Stingray. There are a few other brands local to me I want to try out first. Looking at CJ, VTL, Jolida and Bryston. So have you changed to the JJ's and the new input tubes yet? Curious to know what your opinion is with the new tubes. I remember reading a review of the Stingray in which the reviewer's initial impression was not good at all, but once he changed input and output tubes, he was very happy. ~shoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCturboT Posted February 1, 2003 Author Share Posted February 1, 2003 Shoe, Breaking in the new JJs as I type this.I purchased new 12AT7s inputs as well as EL84 outputs so I'll give them about 50 hours or so break in before I make any impressions. Mine had Ei inputs which are suppose to be perfect for the preamp section but I figured I'd give the JJs a try to see how they sound.The cost is actually pretty reasonable. Good luck in you tube amp search by the way. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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