rsw 12, most impressive

[Fish]

I have the rsw 12 on loan until my 15 comes in.The 12 is much better than I thought it was at store demo.I must say I did not really expect this level of performance. Recently I auditioned several very much discussed sub's,all were very good in different ways.The rsw 12/15 were true to what many have said,very musical,more musical than any I tried.The shear volume output was incredible,filled my 24x24x12ft room with very refined/controlled bass.If you have the reference system,listen to it,if you don't,listen to it,you may be surprised.If you own it you already know it.I am really looking forward to the 15's arrival.The point of this is,listen to as many as you can,but don't overlook the rsw 12/15.

[prodj101]

hellllllloooo, I have the RSW-15. I never actually used the RSW-12 cause anything below 15 inches isn't a sub to me (with a few exceptions i.e. SVS and Aerial acoustics) . and also, my last sub was a 12 inch, so I really didn't want anything less. I haven't heard any subs yet that I really like more than the RSW-15 overall. a few subs beat it in areas like output and what not, but I think it's without rival for music except all but the super subs like aerial, and the krell's and what not.

[TheEAR]

Yep the RSW15 hits hard and goes quite low,plenty for most music and movies.And when used in a tiny 14*10 room with the RSW10,Sunfire SIg,Sunfire Mark II and Junior it realllllly pounds.

I may get a RSW12 just to complete my RSW sub collection. And stack then in a corner

The KSW series are crude,weak and boomy in comparison.Klipsch best subs EVER are the RSW series no question.Now if Klipsch could improve the low end output,the only real weak point.

[Fish]

This forum has really been on target.Thanks to the help and dedication from people like you'all!

[gtDark]

Staying on topic, what subs would you guys recommend for 75% music 25% movies on a budget of $500 to $1000 ? My room is fairly small, a bit larger than the size of TheEars' room mentioned a couple of posts above, and it will be in coordination with RF-3's and Denon 2802 or HK AVR 225. Over in the Home Theater section SVS is really popular, and the SVS PC-Plus series are in my price range, but since they are only sold online (I believe) how can I hear how good they are (anyone in the Atlanta area ) ?

Thanks in advance,

Matt

[prodj101]

an RSW-12 would fit in that price range.

[gtDark]

Word, tell me something I don't know though Or is that simply it: the last word.

Matt

[prodj101]

the RSW-12 is just the same as the 15 except a little less output, and not quite as deep. but if it were up to me, thats what I would go for. I was actually really looking at the RSW-12, but figured the 15 was only a few hunderd more and I knew I would regret not getting the 15 if I got the 12, so here I am.

[Fish]

I think the rsw 12 would be very good in all but the largest rooms.I do agree that it was sufficient but,I also decided that for a few hundred more to get the 15.The svs would be my choice if it were 75% movies 25% music,but the rsw is my choice for music and 5.1 concerts.

[gtDark]

I've been afraid that the SVS might be too un-musical for my needs, but answer me this though: If flat response at high SPL's over a broad frequency range is what we (subwoofer users) want for accurate sound reproduction, why wouldn't the SVS be a better choice (as much for music as for movies) than the RSW-which peaks in the mid-range bass and drops off as it dips past 25 or 30 Hz ? Is there something in subwoofer specs that somehow indicates the "musicality" of the sub, or is it merely something that must be read-between-the-lines (on the cut sheet persay) by listening to the sub in person with my ears.

Thanks,

Matt

[Fish]

Great question,I can't answer it all but,there are subs that can go lower than the klipsch and still be very musical.The thing I have found is I would have to spend almost twice the money for these subs.Build design naturally has a lot to do with the musicality.I also think in the perfect(takes time and options) placement,right room,the klipsch may do a little better than some reviews would indicate.

[prodj101]

"I've been afraid that the SVS might be too un-musical for my needs, but answer me this though: If flat response at high SPL's over a broad frequency range is what we (subwoofer users) want for accurate sound reproduction, why wouldn't the SVS be a better choice (as much for music as for movies) than the RSW-which peaks in the mid-range bass and drops off as it dips past 25 or 30 Hz ? Is there something in subwoofer specs that somehow indicates the "musicality" of the sub, or is it merely something that must be read-between-the-lines (on the cut sheet persay) by listening to the sub in person with my ears."

specs really don't tell anything about the way a peice of audio equipment sounds. using specs on audio equipment is like trying to describe a famous peice of art by saying "the blue line runs vertical for 2 feet and is than intersected by an orange line". While this may be an "accurate" description of the painting, it doesn't really let you know the feeling the painting gives you, and similarily, reading ".0005 distortion" or "flat response down to 20 hz" doesn't really tell you anything either. With that in mind, you really can't make an assumption about anything audio related without listening to it first. Thats the only true way to tell if you like something or not.

I'd go listen to as many subs as you can, from as many companies possible. However, the SVS are an online only retailer, so that is something you'd want to maybe go to someone's home to check out. Good luck.

[formica]

I definitely agree with the part about listening and choosing but Im somewhat in a similar dilemma, as the SVSs have been getting rave reviews, but you cant really go and give them a listen. Im even more curious on how they compare to my 12 Energy... and if its even worth the upgrade (75% music, 25% movies). Another option Ive been looking at is DIY, but there again, you dont know until youre finished... and at least with the SVS, I could resell it.

Reading all the opinions and specs in the world will never tell me if Ill like the sound.

Enjoying the music...

Rob B.

[gtDark]

-Regarding listening to the SVS's, supposedly you can log on to www.audioenvy.com and search for people in your geographic area who have registered themselves as owners of a particular product sold only online (like SVS, Rockets, etc.) and then request by email to go visit them and listen to their equipment. I have doubts about the number of people registered on the site though, because I find it a little hard to believe there are no SVS owners within 500 miles of Atlanta. Good idea though with that website. Also, SVS does a 45 day in home trial type deal, but you do have to pay for shipping both ways if I remember correctly.

-Regarding DIY, the "bang" for those things can be amazing, and that's before even figuring in the relatively minimal "buck." These are only worth it though IMO IF you can invest the resources. I personally don't have the time, the tools (at where I am now), or probably the skills (at this point) to craft a subwoofer to the build quality I would like (I'm a perfectionist). So DIY might be great deal for some people, but not others.

Matt

[Colin]

It is a shame that we have to dig to find the frequency response curves for subwoofers. All subs should have them posted on their rears or included in their manuals. The charts tell you where the sub puts out most of its output. There are some excellent charts available at:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/subwoofers-12-2001.html

This article shows what you get when you dial up more volume with either KSW, RSW or SVS tubes. The punchy bass that we all like so much is most often heard with bass reflex cone loudspeakers, which are often tipped up in the mid-bass regions.

This bass is sloppy in moderate price subwoofers, which have prodigious output in the 60 to 80-Hz range, and higher. A moderate price sub will affect sound up into the high 250-Hz bass range and above. It can color the mid-range. A modest sub, like the KSW series, adds boomy muscle to the mid-bass areas for cheap. These are the price leaders. For most people they will get the most quantity of bass from this sub. This can be very nice, for the low cost of this improvement, especially for movies. It will add some punch, but can easily overwhelm the accuracy of the mid, upper-bass and mid-range regions.

A powerful sub with extra-large amplifier, like the RSW series, adds plenty of punch to the mid-bass. This adds drama to movies and enjoyable punch to music, if not the most accurate response. These are the performance leaders. Because they can be dialed back to provide punch, but not intrude on the sound, most people will get the best quality bass from these subs. Lots of mid-bass from a subwoofer overwhelms the mid-bass area from full range loudspeakers and makes the music sound muddy and congested.

A truly deep bass subwoofer, like the SVS tubes, is the best match for flat music response and deep special movie affects. They dig deep. The output of the SVS tubes are the charts in the article above is lower than all the other, more conventional models. They may not have the punch or high output that so many people seek, but they do have most of their output at such low levels that only expensive, high performance subs can compete. These are the value leaders.

[TheEAR]

The very best subwoofers will not impress with mid bass impact,only add the extreme low end.Not intrude and castrate the musicality like almost all inexpensive Cheapo subs do.

Take the Dynaudio Contour 3.3's in a high end system,add any lesser sub and the transparent and ner perfect sound reproduction is ruined.Add a RSW and there is not much more you hear,add a SVS Ultra or Aerial SW12 and you hear true sub bass when sub bass resides.

On lesser systems the impact is preffered to accurate performance,on my lesser Klipsch RF7's impact and dynamics rule over all.The not to say sound quality is not good,the speakers are just fun to listen to and do an amazing job on any techno,live rock and HT.

On more delicate and refined music the Contour 3.3 put the high impact RF7's to shame.Side by side its not even funny. LOL Compare the HGS18 VS RSW15 and you will know right away the HGS18 is the Alvin of subs,goes deeper then human hearing can hear and tell one note from the other.The RSW15 has bigger impact but starts to fall very very fast under 30Hz.The 19Hz Klipsch claim is ...bogus.

The much smaller Sunfires are also true subwoofers,as these do not have any upper bass impact,they just di deep and perform at their best below 40Hz,at 25Hz they pound the RSW series into concrete.

This is why I have a Sunfire/RSW mix in my smaller HT.

The best performer I have is the Aerial SW12,like a better looking Ultra it can dig very deep with power and speed it has.A light alu cone driver by a very powerful motor structure.It has good impact but the impact region is not overblown and will not impress the trash can Sony WM40 owners.

Yeah you heard me the SOny WM40 is a piece of poop.Boomy,boomy,sluggish and weak down low.And its built quality is worst then a Trabant.In other words its a a POS.

And to say some online reviewers called the WM40 best sub in the budget category! LOL The SVS is the best of the inexpensive,not some POS WM40.

[formica]

Thanks for the link gtDark, but I checked out the www.audioenvy.com web site and like you I got nothing for 500 miles around my area; Montreal, Canada... guess they dont have too many takers yet...

If Id go DIY it would probably be an Adire Sono-sub which is tried and true and quite easy to build... but I remember reading in a forum about how the SVS subs were fine tuned after repeated testing and measurements and I wonder if this could give it an edge to make it worth the extra $. Is the fine-tuning that was referred to have anything to do with some kind of built in equalization?

I definitely agree with colin on that a truly musical sub should have a flat response and dig deep, without the mid-bass peek...

[gtDark]

Re. hearing the SVS: At this point I think I'm unwilling to shell out $800+ for a sub I've never heard before. I know this may be a relatively insignificant amount for a lot of you older posters, but for college students like me on extremely tight budgets, doing my research and making sure I am 100% sure I will be satisfied with a product BEFORE I buy it is critical. With that in mind, is there anyone in the southeast who has a SVS (preferably PC+) sub I can come listen to ? For spring break (March 1-9) I'll either be going to Florida's pan-handle for the beach or driving home to Washington D.C. (passing through N. Carolina) and I will go out of my way to hear this subwoofer in person.

Re. DIY subs (Adire): One of my good friends is sold on Adire DIY sub "kits," if I was in his position (i.e. with his work ethic and patience) I wouldn't be so optimistic about the outcome of making one myself. (Did I really say that ?? )

"I definitely agree with colin on that a truly musical sub should have a flat response and dig deep, without the mid-bass peek..."

--Really that's what I'm saying too. I mean if it is truly a "good" (clean, detailed, loud) subwoofer, why shouldn't it be equally adept at BOTH music AND movies/HT ?? I suppose (repeating what I think already's been said) that there is more to how "good" a sub is BESIDES simply evaluating the linearity of the SPL(dB) vs. frequency (Hz) graph (i.e. the higher and flatter the better); I just simply don't know what these other technical specs for evaluating musicality of a sub are (or if they even exist).

I've just had a small epiphany though (at 2:30 am after studying all night): anybody know any programs/applications out there (on the net) for the computer which plots a SPL(dB) vs. frequency (Hz) graph for a CD that is playing in the CD drive ? I already popped a Coldplay CD in my drive and checked it out on Cool Edit Pro, but it didn't have a scale small enough to accurately pick out frequency ranges below about 100 Hz and evaluate those specific SPL's. I mean by doing this, I could listen to some of my favorite music, and see at what frequency range most of the prominent bass is being played at. Then maybe those specs will help me pick out a subwoofer which is particularly strong (i.e. loud and clear) in THAT specific frequency range-whether it be in the mid-bass range (hence RSW line would be better suited for my music) or the sub-bass range (hence SVS would be better suited). I mean assuming music is most important to me, why go with the SVS (which is really good at the sub-bass but not so great at the mid-bass) when most of my music's bass is mostly MID-bass ? OK maybe not such an epiphany . Hope I didn't lose any of you, I just rattled that off pretty fast.

Matt,

GT Jacket

[dougdrake]

Matt - I appreciate your hesitance on buying "sight unheard," but remember they have a generous return policy, and I don't think many get returned. But your effort to find someone in the vicinity that will let you audition is time well spent, just the same.

DD

[gtDark]

Just got an email back from SVS:

Q(ME): "I've been afraid that the SVS might be too un-musical for my needs, but answer me his

though: If flat response at high SPL's over a broad frequency range is what we

(subwoofer users) want for accurate sound reproduction, why wouldn't the SVS be a better

choice (as much for music as for movies) than the RSW-which peaks in the mid-

range bass and drops off as it dips past 25 or 30 Hz ?"

To which Erik from SVS answers,

A(SVS): "Youve hit the nail on the head with your analysis of why musicality of a sub is such a

non-issue/excuse. There can be bad subs that sneak by ok for home theater and bad subs

that can handle just music. But there arent any good subs that are only good for one

of those applications."

Well SVS basically told me exactly what I wanted to hear, and thusly made me $800+ poorer

But at least now I know I'm getting the best subwoofer I can for the money which still suits my specific needs. So that should shut up that little voice in the back of my head which constantly keeps me from fully enjoying something I've bought by reminding me that there MIGHT have been a better subwoofer for me out there, but I just didn't find it because I didn't do enough research.

This still makes me wonder though, it would be really cool if there was some kind of technical spec (or set/combination of specs) which could indicate the "musicality" of a subwoofer. This doesn't mean it isn't out there though. TVodhanel once wrote quoting Paul Klipsch something along the lines of ..."if you can hear a difference, but can't measure a difference...you're measuring the wrong thing!" HornEd once mentioned "measuring" ability to follow fast moving musical passages accurately as critical to having a good musical sub, and another poster mentioned low distortion & accuracy (pitch definition). Do you guys know any specs which illustrate a sub's ability to do either of these things ? All I ever read/see is driver size, power, and max output. I mean what specs do you subwoofer gurus look at when you are researching a sub (and yes I know all of this is NON-LISTENING information and that LISTENING is the ulimate test) ?

Matt

P.S. I found an application that scans music as you play it in your CD drive on your computer and displays real-time frequency response graphs in a bunch of cool ways-if anyone's interested.

http://www.ymec.com/products/raee/