leok Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 I just returned from a couple of hours of very enjoyable listening at Chris's place. Chris has two very nice setups .. Klipsch heaven. Home Theater - Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) - Belle Klipsch ALK (Center) - Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) - Klipsch KSW-12 sub - Denon AVR-4800 - Toshiba SD-3109 DVD I've never heard any of the listed speakers. They are delightful, clear, clean, and powerful. The power and dynamics were outside of what I'm used to with the RF-7s. Everything sounded life-sized. And the power didn't sound "loud" it just sounded strong. Frequency coverage was smooth and there was no noticeable distortion .. except the slight edge of "transistor sound" on the highs. Still, this is a HT setup, 6-channels w/ sub, and it is far better than I would have expected from a transistor amp and better than any theater sound I can remember. I think Chris has succeeded in creating an excellent HT system. Chris has also refinished many of the speaker cabinets. The results are probably better than the originals. Then, the speaker finishes blended nicely with the room's shelving and cabinetry. It was upon my second visit to the room that I even realized that there was a Belle center speaker below the TV screen .. it blended that well. Two Channel System - Wright Sound 3.5 2A3 SET - Wright Sound WPP100C Phono Stage - AES AE-3 Pre-amp - Tjoeb 4000 CD Player - Music Hall MMF7 Turntable - 1976 Klipschorns (KCBR's & ALK'ed) I have heard KHorns before, but not driven by appropriate equipment. We listened to a variety of music. I will refer to the string quartet examples for this discussion. Clear, clean, and powerful, from the above paragraph applies several times over here. From cd or record the results were the same: Instruments were life-sized, dynamic,and natural sounding. I was most impressed with the Cellos. I attended a string quartet concert last night and remembered that the cello was more powerful than what I hear through my RF-7s. Not so with Chris' setup. The cellos were big and powerful. Violin attacks were as percussive as they should be. The violas sounded equally confused in the recordings as they do in real life (violas can sound rich sometimes and really nasal other times). I was aware of the swirling sound I've come to attribute to a mid-high crossover, and made a point of comparing the hf clarity with the 2-way sound of my RF-7s. I felt that there were so many gains in dynamics and overall coherency of the total horn presentation that the mid-high crossover was a much smaller point than I have considered it to be. With the RF-7s I can listen to musicians. With the KHorns I'm in the room with them. Makes me think real hard about LeScalas for my little house. I liked the sound of Chris' Wright Sound SETs. The Moondogs were more dynamic. Chris is more familiar with the listening environment and may have more to say on that subject. I was too blown away by the KHorns to think real hard about which SET sounded better. I am partial to the Tjoeb 4000 because of the tubes. It certainly sounded perfect to me. The Music Hall MMF7, via Wright Sound WPP100C Phono Stage played my records better than I've ever heard them. How much of the improved cellos was due to the sources? Probably not that much. I think Chris' Heritage speakers are what was grabbing my attention in all cases. His sources provide them with good material. Thanks to Chris for the hospitality and a very enjoyable couple of hours of good listening. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 23, 2003 Share Posted February 23, 2003 Leo, nice review ... This afternoon after you left, I was watching golf on TV but was really thinking about (digesting) all the different flavors of music that we listened to -- through Wrights, Moondogs and your Heathkit PP. It almost felt like a "shoot-out" where all the contestants were happily left standing. First, my 2-channel observations. Up until this morning, I felt that the Wrights were an optimal pairing with the Klipschorns. I generally feel that for such flea-sized monoblocks, these Wrights really make large, efficient speakers dance. And I love the midrange. After listening to a few CD tracks, we swapped in the Moondogs and fired them up. I have got to say that they, as configured, had a lot more gain than my Wrights, and they really got the bass perfectly. Lots of slam but very tight and quick. The midrange was very forward; both Leo and I agreed on that as well. I didn't, however, find it at all fatiguing to listen to; with the 30" midrange horns, they really talk with the Moondogs -- so if you're a midrange fan (as am I), this is a very nice combination. You need to keep in mind that Leo's been tweaking his 'dogs with the Ultrapath ... so these are hardly stock Moondogs anymore. With the impending Parafeed mod, things are probably going to change some more, but to my ears, he's been hitting the ball down the middle with all his mods so far. We did some vinyl listening, but I've got some noise still in the phono stage on one side and it was pretty annoying. I need to get those tube culprits out before sending it down to Kelly; I had hoped to get that done today but it may be a few more days before I can rectify it. I certainly don't want to send him damaged goods. We listened to his Heathkit PP's ... although as Leo admits, there is nothing of the original circuit left in these. They have special boot-up sequences to minimize damage, but the results are astonishing. These are VERY FINE PP's ... very lush and close to the sound of the Wrights (to my ears). If I had started with these amps, I might have stopped there ... they're that good. Very smooth and easy to listen to ... Even though they are similar to my SuperAmp in circuitry, they are NOTHING like it sound-wise. Solid, straight A's. We did do a little time in the family room where Heritage does indeed dominate. It's a fun room to enjoy movies and tunes if you're into a 360 degree musical experience ... For pure 2-channel, though, nothing beats Heritage and SET, and I think the Klipschorns are probably King of That Hill. Another fun few hours with Leo ... a real gentleman and an afficionado of fine music and circuits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Chris and Leo, Sound like a great time. I have a few questions. Leo, What Heathkit amps are we talking about ?? Leo what all did you do to them modification wise ? What tube compliment ? I find this intrigueing ! Chris, No HF-81 in the mix ?? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Craig, I still have the -81 as part of the 2-channel system and it's one of my two favorite amps. After the Wrights arrived, though, I've been giving them listening time to grow accustomed to the sound. I plan to put the HF-81 back in soon and give it a good comparo. Not to worry; it's a KEEPER !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 I'm not worried just thought Leo's thought would of been interesting on that amp ! Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Very impressive reviews indeed! Chris and Leo both have fantastic systems, topped off with Klipsch! I'm a firm believer in the Heritage Series; my Cornwalls are keepers for sure, even with my humble little SS system. Possibly Leo will make the transition to La Scalas or Belles...his tubes deserve no less! Listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 24, 2003 Author Share Posted February 24, 2003 I've already had the yardstick out. LaScalas are big in a salt box built in 1828. The sound of Heritage Klipsch driven with good equipment is very impressive. I may have to get creative. I need those cellos in my living room. I give it a 50% chance. Could be I just need a new house. ------------------- The pp amps are a very simple circuit (with some auxiliary circuitry besides). Gain, phase split, and driver is a constant-current loaded differential pair created by both sides of an E88CC. It's a simple diff-amp. Input is dc connected to either side of the diff-amp and output goes through Jensen copper foil & oils to the KT66 grids. KT66s are strapped for triode operation. Cathodes sit directly on 100uF caps to gnd. There is the additional 0.47uF caps directly from cathodes to xfmr B+. Bias current is about 45mA w/ 480V B+. With cathode bias at 45 to 50 V, that's about 20W plate dissipation. Transformers are Hammond 1608 (10W 8000 Ohm Primary). The theory: smaller transformer / lower noise, better hf. This idea is in response to interest on Klipsch BB in EL84 amps. I thought the real gain might be the smaller transformer, not the tubes. Result .. Much better high end. Overall, better detail. No feedback anywhere, all class A operation. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Leo, maybe you could start with borrowing the Heresies for a week. Yes, they're not the Klipschorns, but you could diddle with positioning and room dynamics. The Cornwalls are probably the next step up size-wise. The Belles and LS's are very deep speakers and take up more room that Klipschorns in normal rooms. Just let me know and they're yours for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 Leo, Chris said these were Heathkit PP if they are what model were they based off ? Or was he mistaken and there Homebrew completely ? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 24, 2003 Share Posted February 24, 2003 That sounds like allot of fun. Giving Leo the Heritage bug has got to be fun. Older homes do have their limitiations; even I would have a tough time putting in LaScalas, Khorns are out of the question. Leo, The PP amps souds like it has a new fan in Chris. What heathkit model did you start with? This amp sounds liek a neat story. Is there a schematic to go with it? I am trying to find time in my schedule to see Craig, but my boss just filled up most of the schedule for March. I was listening to a Herbie Mann CD tonight doing homework with the kids. The P6D does a nice job on Herbies flute. New Ortofon stylus should arrive from the Needle Doctor tommorrow and then I get to play with vinyl for the first time in 10 years. There is some really great experimenting going on for everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 26, 2003 Author Share Posted February 26, 2003 NOS440, The pp amps started 3 years ago as Hath W5M. They're completely custom now, except for the B+ supply and chassis. I can go over more of the circuitry if you wish. I thought it a bit dry for here, but I'll email. The circuit is, however, no more than I described. Chris, Thanks for the speaker offer. I have some thinking to do. Right now I'm trying to figure out if Allison suck-out is what is robbing my RF-7s of mid bass. (and I'm looking for LaScalas on sale .. no, I didn't ay that.) leok leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 Leo, Great that is what I was looking for what Iron did you start out with !! Thanks No sense going over it now. If and when I procure a set of amps to play with I will pic your brain at that time if you don't mind Thanks Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 I am just surprised anyone would not know about Leok's Heathkit PP amps that is a frequent contributor/reader of the forum. Almost EVERY post (besides the RF7 mods) of his initially dealt with his ongoing modifications of these same Heathkit monoblock amplifiers, this over the last year or so. He wrote of his foray into feedback vs no feedback, triode wired vs stock, circuit mods, the role of outputs, transformer size, low watts approach, etc. He did everything but post pictures. In fact, I still mainly associate him with these amplifiers and not the Moondogs, P6D, or even RF-7. I have alway been a fast reader but are you loons reading? heh.... OF course, I was also going to give ole Leo some flak for not knowing Chris Robinson had an HF-81 as this was also plastered left and right. Indeed, I even thought he wrote some posts directly to Leo discussing comparisons relating to why he preferred his HF-81 to his Superamp. Then again, I could give ole Robinson some grief for not TELLING ole Leo that there was an EICO sitting in the next room and bringing it out to play... Oh well, this either proves the benefits of having to read 800 pages in 24 hours for university/clients/work or is another fine example of too much time spent within the confines of this hell hole. It's probably a mixture of all above (not to mention the 3 hours of sleep a day). I probably need to give myself some grief! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 mobile homeless Answering Machine Total Posts: 3,462 I think this pretty much covers it LOL !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 By the way Kelly at what number do you turn to a answering machine ? One post previous to this I'm changing my name LOL !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted February 26, 2003 Share Posted February 26, 2003 yeah I would much rather have "no life" LOLOLOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 27, 2003 Share Posted February 27, 2003 I think my recollection was 3000 posts for that moniker. I think between Leo and me, we've got too much gear to listen to in even two sessions ... Another one will be needed, for sure. I just wished we lived a little closer to each other. The poor guy has to drive an hour just to get out to my home ... It may not be the end of the earth, but you can see it from there Guys, let me tell you, Leo is not only a REAL gentleman, he is one awesome engineer. I swear the guy can to multivariable, simultaneous equations in his head while having a conversation and breaking down some jazz construct in 9/8! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 27, 2003 Author Share Posted February 27, 2003 Hey Chris, I'll stop back to hear the Eicos. I'll stop back just to get close to that Heritage collection. By the way, As a result of what I heard at your place I did discover that floor reflections are killing a region of mid-bass in my RF-7s. I found a way to use baffles to kill the reflection. Not like horn-loaded bass, but at least there's some cello fundamental now. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 28, 2003 Share Posted February 28, 2003 Leo, well you know you're welcome to drop in anytime ... And BTW, the HF-81 is down in the basement on my other workbench so you wouldn't have seen it Thanks for clarifying the bass phenomenon in the RF-7 ... I take it that this was what you referred to as "Allison suck-out" ... Can you expand on what it is exactly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 28, 2003 Author Share Posted February 28, 2003 Chris, My understanding is: bass travels to the listener following 2 paths: one is direct and the other involves floor reflection. The floor reflection version travels further to get to the listener For a distance d from speaker cone to floor, the reflected version travels about 2d further. If d is about 1/4 wavelength of a frequency, then the reflected frequency will be 2d, or 1/2 wavelength behind the direct version. This is directly out of phase so the two will cancel. 100Hz is about 8' long. 2' is 1/4 wavelength. Midpoint between the two RF-7 woofers is about 2' off the floor. So frequencies around 100Hz are likely to be affected. This is about where I was encountering the problem .. the fundamentals just disappeared, esp. when I would sit in the location I suggested when you visited. Actually I thought the impacted frequencies were also higher, but the lower woofer might explain that. Anyway, with a good acoustic baffle or fence, about 2' high, between the listening position and each speaker, and a pillow at the base of the speaker to block corner reflection, the fundamentals returned. Your Heritage speakers don't have this problem because they tend to drive bass from the bottoms of the cabinets. Also, you have carpet in your house which would reduce the reflected strength. That's all pretty approximate, but I think it's also pretty real. leok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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