m00n Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 I bet you thought this was going to be dirty didn't ya... Well fooled you. This really is about driver size. . And no not the driver in yr pants. I am talking about subwoofer drivers.... Ok ok to the point. Something The Ear said in a thread made me want to head back over to SVS. I was looking at the ultras and noticed two things that made me wonder how they could be such an impressive sub. 1) They are only 39" tall and 16" diameter. 2) They only have a 12" driver. How is it that a speaker with only a 12" driver can push lower frequencies than a 15" driver. Another question I have is that I have heard time after time, the Klipsch subs, well the RSWs anyway have a lot of puch to them compaired to others such as the SVS. What is it about the Klipsch subs that give them that puch? Why do the SVS NOT have the same amount of punch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audible Nectar Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 mOOn, subwoofers are like speakers - all have different characteristics - different strengths and weaknesses. Some go very deep (SVS) some are very punchy (RSW), some are deep and tight (Velo HGS). They are all different, and serve different needs. Driver size is not necessarily the most important aspect of a subwoofer. On first inspection of the SVS 12" speaker, one would not believe the SVS would dig so low. Driver size can have advantages, however - my JBL woofers, for example. Having 4 15" high quality woofers certainly has it's advantages. That makes for lots of surface area, which can move a helluvalotta air. Minimal driver movement results in super clean, tight bass that doesn't linger - when the signal stops, so do the subs. They don't go as low as the HGS or SVS (my JBL's go down to about 25 hz or so - down 4db) but are very accurate - especially for a ported sub. It is the closest I can come to "horn loaded" bass without actually having horn loaded cabinets - and were all purchased on closeout for less than is charged for one SVS ultra driver alone. The SVS 12" driver must have much greater excursion to belt out that 110+ db bass. These really are a marvel of engineering though - especially when you consider how clean these drivers are. The Carver microsubs are also incredible subs for thier size - another high excursion offering that is very clean and deep. Large does not necessarily mean "better". As Eric Clapton once sang, "It's in the way that you use it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Driver size has nothing to do with how low it will play. A tweeter can be designed to play a 20hz tone. Problem is the tweeter will be moving so little air you won't be able to hear it. Two things have to happen to produce low bass, the driver has to be designed to play it, and the driver has to be able to move enough air that we can hear it. With acoustic suspension and bass reflex systems the key volume down low is displacement (Vd). Vd is the multiple of the cones effect radiating surface area (Sd) and the distance the driver can travel linearly (two way Xmax). So if a smaller driver can travel sufficientyly farther than a larger driver it will be able to move more air. So in the case of comparing a KSW15 driver to a TV12 (driver in the Ultra), the TV12 will easily move a significantly larger amount of air. But compare a TV12 to a driver like Adire's 15" Tumult and the TV12 will be way behind because it has a smaller Xmax and almost half the Sd. The other point to remember is Hoffman's Iron law. Out of efficiency (how much power is needed), extension (how low the sub will play) and enclosure size (how big the box needs to be), you can pick any two to control and the third will be dicated to you. Small box and extension, you'll need gobs of power. Efficiency and extension, prepare for a huge enclosure. Etc, etc. The reason the RSW subs have more punch is they are tuned to a much higher frequency (passive radiator and a port do the exact same thing in a slightly different way). The highest tuned SVS will be tuned lower than the lowest tuned RSW. You pretty much have to sacrifice some punch to get extension (unless you are dealing with massive arrays of drivers in an infinite baffle or huge bass horns) which is what the SVS do while the RSW don't. Also the cylinders are a little decieving. The RSW15 is ~100L enclosure. The 20-39 is ~120L enclosure and the 16-46 ~150L enlcosure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Dustin is this your site? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Yes it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Well, I just wanted to congratulate you on a job well done you your tube... That thing looks very nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 Thanks, it sounds kick *** too. Amazing what can be done when you can let Hoffman's Iron law dictate enclosure size to you. Just wish my receiver would get back from the repair place fixed, a month with no stereo really sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 Anything you would do differently? Use a different driver or amp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted March 3, 2003 Share Posted March 3, 2003 At the time, only things I'd to differently are put a base plate and round legs on it (appearance reasons only). Might also have flush mounted the amp. Right now, little harder to say. Given my budget constraints I would still likely stick with the Tempest. Although if I could spend some more I'd likely go with a Stryke Audio AV15, some 6" port flares and a 350-500W plate amp. If I could spend a lot more Adire Tumult with a pair of 18" dual spider passive radiators and over 1000W pro amp. Althoug my dream is still for Adire to come out with an XBL^2 motor topology (Adire's patent pending design that is very cool) Tempest that would have around 3L of Vd. Then I'd like to put 4 of them in an infinite baffle sub. It's bottom on my list right now, but hopefully by the time I'm ready, Dan will have the drivers out First on the list is a Panasonic PT-L300U and a HTPC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 3, 2003 Author Share Posted March 3, 2003 ---------------- On 3/3/2003 9:50:54 PM Dustin B wrote: Right now, little harder to say. Given my budget constraints I would still likely stick with the Tempest. Although if I could spend some more I'd likely go with a Stryke Audio AV15, some 6" port flares and a 350-500W plate amp. If I could spend a lot more Adire Tumult with a pair of 18" dual spider passive radiators and over 1000W pro amp. ---------------- How much would all that cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin B Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 AV15 is $205 (unless you can still finagle the preorder price, forget what that is but a chunk cheaper). The amp will be another $130-$500 depending on which one you go with and $50 for a pair of 6" port flares. Add to that whatever you spend on the enclosure and finish. Tumult is $500. PRs are something like $120 each. Amp will be $400-$1200 depending on what you go with. Plus enclosure and finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted March 4, 2003 Share Posted March 4, 2003 Moon, What is going on? You are ready to eat and earfull of sub bass info of late. Bottom line is you want deep bass you need a a giant toilet paper tube with a mean street TV12 woofer or an Adire Tumult with a few PR's powered by a massive pro amp. Dont take no whimpy substitutes There is no substitute for cubic inches moved BTW is am listening(blasting) DJ Shadow & NWA F@*% the police LOL funny tune,colorful language used and BIG FAT bass.Hilarious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00n Posted March 4, 2003 Author Share Posted March 4, 2003 I just have a bad case of the smores... I constantly want some more. More base, more speakers, different speakers(klipsch of course). I keep toying with getting some belles. I get excited about belles for a few days and then it goes away, then comes back about a month later... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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