Mallette Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Why? Simple. Haveing spent a wonderful day with him many years ago and having been in the forum for some time now, I certainly understand the main was HUGE and had an ego to match. You don't become a legend by complimenting others work, but by leaving it in the dirt. PWK did that, and the only other designer he personally endorsed to me was Jack Frazier of Dallas. Not only that, but he used the man's products. Having lived with my little Frazier Monte Carlo's since 1970, and the recently collecting a pair of Mark IV's and a Super Midget that went into my HT setup, I was certainly a fan. Today, my lastest pair of Mark IV's, 116.00 delivered and in beautiful cosmetic condition, arrived. I put them up front in the HT setup, moved the other Mark IV's to the rear pointing 90 degrees to the ears, set the unit on bypass (to check the new ones by themselves first), and put on my traditional first play (you listening, 1stcav?) the classic Columbia E. Power Biggs recording of the Widor Toccatta with 32hz for real. They sounded awesome. Then I kicked in the rears on a matrix circuit. Mien Gott im Himmel!!!!!!! I was INSIDE THE DAMNED ORGAN. Music, music, inside my head. Like headphones without headphones. So then I put on an Alan Parsons record. After the silky silence only DBX can provide from an LP, there was this gradually unfolding sonic tapestry that literally and palpably filled the room like water pouring into the Titanic. Folks, I had a perfect soundstage, except with little things like a tambourine HANGING ABOUT 3 INCHES from my right ear. Other things too. OK, such sonic stunts are everyone's cup of tea. Some folks like their whiskey straight even if it sux. I've not done enough classical/acoustic with this setup to see how it fares, but the Widor piece didn't get weird like the Parsons...which is as it should be. The final decay from the pipe organ proceeded from the front to the rear just like it should OK, I am rambling and I'd rather be listening. Wouldn't even be shareing this if I didn't have my quota of Frazier's for a while...but I love you people so much. Need to add a couple of things... If God provides more than I need (which He already has), I will build that 4 corner room for 4 'horns. It must be the ultimate experience by which one may be translated directly to a state of Grace. Also, there is now no doubt in my mind that Mark IV's outrun Heresies dollar for dollar considerably. More bass, at least equal "naturalness," and soundstaging. 116.00 vs. 300.00 or more...no contest. TBHWY, I suspect PWK may have designed Heresy after hearing Mark IV's and realizing that pure horns weren't all there is. I do not know if Jack and Paul ever met or spoke, but they definitely communed somehow. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 The Dixielanders just sold for $151....they were in good shape..just a little too big and PA looking for me. I look forward to hearing those MarkIV's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Oh my God, from E. Power Biggs to the Alan Parsons Project...and music that simply envelops you, draws you inside of it. It's like a sphere of sound, and you're the atom in its centre! I know this experience well, for my Cornwalls often drag me into their world, and smother me in sonic textures like no others I have experienced. I do have loads of (past) experience with 4 Klipschorns in a vast music room that also housed a 1927 Marr & Colton theatre organ. When those Khorns reproduced the demo tapes of that very pipe organ in the very same space...well, I don't know what I appreciated more; the actual organ played live, or the recording of that same organ played through those 4 mighty Klipschorns! You decide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 3, 2003 Author Share Posted April 3, 2003 1stcav, you tell me what I intellectually know but have yet to experience. God willing, I shall. Until I do, this system will get me as close to heaven as a breathing person can get. Good as the 'horns. No. Not that big, but that's all. Need them big ol' horns in the rear. Hmmm...not sure that sounds polite. Ken: You are only ten minutes away. This week went with two sick kids and a video project that still didn't get much attention...and probably won't with the new toys. You are welcome over the weekend (Sunday PM is always good) or next week as you can work it out. Just let me know. I think I also mentioned the 24/196 8 channel capable card I've just rec'd, but I've not had time to spend much time with it yet... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 ---------------- On 4/3/2003 7:59:30 PM Mallett wrote: "1stcav, you tell me what I intellectually know but have yet to experience. God willing, I shall. Until I do, this system will get me as close to heaven as a breathing person can get." ---------------- Dave, you have experienced it...maybe not with 4 Klipschorns in a concert hall-sized music room like I did back in '80, but you have virtually "lived" the experience each and every time you listen to your Klipschorn/Cornwall 3-way stereo system! I do with only my 2 Cornwalls. And now you do with your 4 Fraziers. So they're not 4 horns front and rear...but they do get the job done...Whatever it takes to transport your mind and soul INTO the music! Of course, once you finally have 4 Klipschorns, it'll be sweet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 4, 2003 Author Share Posted April 4, 2003 Didn't get any more listening in last evening as my daughter spiked a temp and had to tend to her. However, we did watch some TV, and the now all-Frazier 5.1 system (well, except for the '.1' which is still a Pinnacle) was really excellent. There is a pair of Frazier speakers on Ebay at the moment in Houston that have 4 of the drivers used in my Super Midget that have a 50.00 reserve. Unfortunately, I can't even go that at the moment for fear of pushing the PAW. They would make excellent center channel speakers! If anybody wants one for that purpose, I'll take the other. The Super Midget sounds great but I think a bit more "umph" might be in order for big time movies and such. I've corresponded quite a bit with the guy and I think they are in pretty good shape. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Humm Dave sounds like you need to host another listening party. I never have gotten to listen with all your new toys. This Sunday is not good for me but perhaps I can pop in some other weekend. Laters, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 I wonder what PK thought of multichannel as it is being implemented today? I just got done reading his biography, and though it is apparent he was a big advocate of three-channel 'stereo', there is no indication of what he thought regarding rear channel placement. I know he had real concerns involving unpredictable polar patterns in the soundfield and the resultant cancelation effects and room node excitements, which could take one away from a smooth and accurate frequency response. There is a very interesting wiring scheme in the book for three-channel stereo using two mono-amps. I'll try to scan that in and post it later tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 5, 2003 Author Share Posted April 5, 2003 Well, I've been 24 hours unable to get on the forum due to something weird with the site. Hope this makes it... Dean: Interesting you should mention PWK's attitude towards multi-channel sound, as that is the very reason I collected these 4 matched Fraziers. I've always referred to 2 channel "stereo" as dual mono, because I've never heard a totally convincing image from two speakers. Passive ambience recovery ala Hafler helps a lot by providing the out of phase info that occurs naturally in recordings, but is by no means perfect. Recording 4 channels has it's own issues as you mentioned, and I've a project underway to explore just those issues. Here is the plan: 1. Collect 4 matched high quality speakers (done) 2. Collect 4 matched Crown 30D PZM mics. (one down, 4 to go). NOTE ON WHY PZM: the PZM is like a ribbon in having a natural pattern. In the case of the ribbon, it is figure of 8. In the case of the PZM, it is a near perfect 180 degrees. More on this next. 3. Build a topless and bottomless cube of 1 meter square light plex and mount pzm's dead center N-E-W-S sides. This will provide 4 discrete channels covering 180 degrees. 4. Record at 24/176.4. Probably environmental sounds like a good Texas spring thunderstorm first. 5. Evaluate. First, I will play this back through the four matched speakers via direct input to four amp channels. If the result is as I expect, proceed to 6. 6. Encode to DVD-A 4 channels at 24/88.2 and evaluate playback from a DVD player. Hopefully, this will equal or near equal the discrete nature of 5. In theory, it should. 7. Try this with music. Either the classic Sacred Harp square formation where the voices all face each other on 4 sides, or antiphonal choir/instruments/organ etc. in a church. 8. If all the above is successful, and the results as spectacular as I hope, release a DVD disc for all to ear. After that, Nobel prize, Grammies, the usual. ;-> If nothing else, it should be fun and instructive. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 THAT sounds like a lot of work. I hope it pays off for you. I'd be happy just to be able to afford a matching set of Heresies for my Cornwalls, and try the little Hafler box Dynaco still sells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjohnsonhp Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Based on Dave's fondness for more than two speakers I started listening to music with my two matching Heresys in the rears with my Cornwalls. I don't like having the center Heresy on because it's on top of a 55" RPTV. When I put it on a riser near the floor it's much better but then I can't turn on the TV or it will blurr. Dave, you could have recorded some TX hail tonight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 6, 2003 Author Share Posted April 6, 2003 Dean: you can build that circuit if you wish. Can't remember where, but the plans are somewhere on the web. Ken: Wish I'd had a system up! As it were, I did get it with my digital camcorder in nightshot mode...looked like Baghdad with tracers falling all over! Some over an inch. Great having a steel roof. Pile up to cover the ground then washed away like a river spring thaw. Pretty cool. Wish I could get it to channel 5... Note my thread about private email in the "General" forum. I'd stay clear of it. As to this four channel discrete recording project, it will be a LOT of work indeed, and would not be possible without the support and encouragement of the PAW. I've a friend with a couple of RS PZM's, and lonelobo loaned me one, and I've a 30D coming I won on Ebay. That will provide something to begin tests as I collect three more 30D's. I think it will really be exciting and hope to be able to share the results. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Dean, PWK comments on quad a little in one of the Dope From Hope papers. I started a thread on 3/15 about it, entitled Paul W. Klipsch on 3-channel and 4-channel. The thread is about 7 pages back in the thread index. A key thing, to repeat, is having quality speakers all the way round. Certainly PWK would have liked selling 5 (or 6) speakers to everyone instead of 2 or 3! Paul had two main reservations about quad: 1) Phonograph records weren't capable of delivering quad adequately. Open reel would have been fine, but quad open reel didn't catch on in a big way. I think he would have loved SACD with 5 or 5.1 discrete channels, which does not suffer from the distortion of the stylus/quad vinyl arrangement. 2) He wanted three speakers across the front, not just the two that quad used. If 4 speakers were mandated, he would have used 3 across the front and 1 in back. But now since 5 speakers are used (plus the option of a sub) in multi-channel SACD, you have the three speakers across the front. So, again, a reservation PWK had about quad is now moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 6, 2003 Author Share Posted April 6, 2003 Accurate stuff about PWK and quad. However, my experiments are going to be in a pure 4 channel concept. For instance, the first is likely to be a thunderstorm. This subject matter truly should surround one with no focal point except the center. When I proceed to music, I will apply this only to appropriate subject matter, such as the Sacred Harp square, antiphonal music with instruments and choirs on four sides, etc. In other words, and center channel if present should be off, as it would be incorrect. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Dean, hope you enjoyed the PWK book ... typos and all Was Kelly the next one on the list? Don't forget to sign and jot a note on the front inside cover. Best, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Michael Hurd is next, then Kelly. I really enjoyed the book, so much so I read through it twice. I read the chapter, "The Speaker Years" -- many more times. It was nice to find out that he just wasn't brilliant, but decent and good as well. I may meet him someday yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted April 6, 2003 Author Share Posted April 6, 2003 >It was nice to find out that he just wasn't brilliant, but decent and good as well. I may meet him someday yet. Just who do you figure is going to MAKE Gabriel's horn anyway? Got to be very efficient to be heard all over the world at once! ;-0 Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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