Question about soundstage

[horonzak]

Soundstaging - soundfield. Example- Belafonte at Carnegie Hall. Im shure every body's heard it. A good example of using 2 overhead stereo mics PLUS separet mics on EACH instrumet. Two mics on a pair of guitars & bass. mic on bongos. severl mics on 47 piece symphony orchestra. Plus Belafonte,s own hand held mic. Some times he puts mic on floor stand & walks a way with only over head stereo mic pick up pointing down at stage. His voice shifting left & right or fading out of range. BUT what is most interesting is the APPLAUSE from the audiance. Wide and deep. BUT the damn audiance applause is right up there ON STAGE with Belafonte & orchestra. Most annoying. This is a good example of MULTI MIC MONO + a stereo mix gone nuts. I have collected hundreds of photos from recording sessions studio & live. You would be shocked at where recording engineers stick that mic to give "you are there" image realisem. Ive recorded small groups to full symphony orchestras. Using various stereo mic placements. X Y, spaced arrey, Blumlein pair, middle-sides (M-S) Londen Tree. All polar patterns. Soundstage ? Its all in the art of the mix. IF your good the recording can sound great. BUT going from the MASTER to the final pressing thats an ART.

[kjohnsonhp]

I'm pretty pleased with the image and soundstage of my Cornwalls. I had to experiment with the placement. At first I has left and right only. Then I got left/right and a phantom center. I finally have a soundstage that doesn't seem to have sounds coming from only three places (left & right speakers and phantom center).

Only off axis do I hear sounds coming straight out of a speaker.

I get sounds up and down, left and right...the debth of image I not sure about.

The tweeters on my system are too loud. The triangles, cymbals, and other high frequencie sounds come forward and are dominant in the sound crystal clear.

[Dale W]

I'm with craig on this one .

I don't believe that the speakers alone create the soundstage. Yes they need to be able to recreate the info given to them by the amp but the amp and pre-amp are just as important in the chain.

Soundstage to me means the same as wearing a walkman or earphones. The sound is inside your head and without direction or source yet still maintains a 3d effect.

Hearing background in the background instead of right up front with everything else.

My tube gear blows away the 15 or 20 SS amps i've owned as far as soundstage is concerned. so it can't just be the speaker.

[J M O N]

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On 5/1/2003 4:13:34 PM DeanG wrote:

"...Who the hell ever went to a live event and said, "Oh my, I love the way those violins hang left of center."? It's simply not something one cares about -- so why does it become of interest when people buy their system..."

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Those have been my EXACT sentiments. I for one have never paid much importance to imaging (I define imaging as the ability to pinpoint the location of various intsturments/vocals). I don't even know if my system has good imaging or not -- I guess I don't care enough to pay attention to it. Soundstage on the other hand (which I consider the ability to fill a room with sound), is something I do like. I don't like having my music sound like it's coming from two single point sources, I like having a wall of sound. My horns do that quite well. The most important characteristic of horns, in my opinion, is their dynamics -- this is where music gets it's emotion, and ultimately, why we enjoy it. Low distortion is also a horn strength, but I think dynamics are even more important. Fortunately, horns do both very well. I wouldn't mind necessarily, to having great imaging, but I won't trade dynamics for it! No way.

[m00n]

Thanks for the replies guys, it been a good read.

[maxg]

Ahhh Soundstage. One of my favorite aspects of listening to my system is the ability to generate a believable 3 dimensional reproduction of a recording.

That is not to say that this reproduction is necessarily a portrayal of the reality of the recording but rather that it is the product of the work of the sound and recording engineers and is therefore very much a rendition of what they wanted to produce.

However well set up your system therefore there are recordings with which you can do very little. On the Beetles album Rubber Soul, for example, the sound engineer saw fit to place the vocals in the right channel and the instrumentation in the left channel. This creates a bizarre and disconcerting effect which, for me at least, rather ruins the experience of listening. It doesnt much matter what system you have there is no way to ge the vocals into the more logical center of the stage.

On the other hand my Decca recording of the Opera Aida creates such a vast soundstage that it appears to overspill the speakers and fill the entire wall of my room.

I have to admit that I am something of a soundstage nut. Not only do I look at the apparent depth, width and height of a recording I now focus on other aspects such as the projection of the recording forward of the line of the speakers and even something I have termed as accoustic perspective.

If I am to define that latter term it would be as follows: When listening to a given piece of music close your eyes and locate any given instrument or voice in 3 dimensional space. Having done this then attempt to ascertain the size of the image created and relate that back to the size you would expect it to be in the real world.

For example in Dvorak's New World Symphony, first movement and about 1 minute into the piece the kettle drums come in with a bang. Listening on my system those drums are postioned towards the rear of the orchestra and to the left. Sonically I would put them about 90 feet from me. Sizewise they appear to be much as I would expect them to be were I in a Concert hall at that distance and this is good.

On the other hand when I am listening to Jennifer Warnes Famous Blue Raincoat she appears to be slightly smaller than life for the apparent distance from me and this is not good.

The reason she appears smaller is simply, as far as I am concerned, a limitation of using a speaker the size of the Heresy. A larger speaker would imcrease the image size, ideally closer to the apparent reality. I should mention here that it is possible, in my opinion, to go to far on image size.

To me this is one of the major drawbacks of the KHorn. It is, to my ears, simply too big. I once described on this forum listening to Ella Fitzgerald on the KHorns as listening to Ella with a 10 foot head. Many people, owners of KHorns, liked the description and commented on it assuming that it was a compliment of the speaker. It wasnt, at least for me. When I listen to Ella I kinda like her to be life size, not so big it appears I am balanced on her nose.

I mentioned before about projection. This is something I have only recently gained in my system as a result of repositioning the speakers, angling them upwards and, most importantly, toeing them in greatly.

As my system is set up now the speakers appear to cross in front of my listening position. I would guesstimate them to be toed in some 30 degrees or so. This has had a number of effects, mainly positive.

The most obvious effect is this projection I have spoken off. It is not just that the soundstage has increased in depth it is that it has moved forwards so that singers can appear to be some distance in front of the speakers. The effect is like moving from row 8 to row 4 of a concert hall, especially in conjunction with the angling up of the speakers which has raised the stage accordingly.

To further complicate the matter my listening chair is a recliner. I have found that leaning further back in the chair whilst listening allows me to adjust the apparent height of the singer and the supporting instrumentation with oftentimes startling effects.

OK I have rambled on a bit here but I should add a few more points:

1. Getting a soundstage is a product of the recording, the medium, the speakers, their placement, the listening room, your listening position and the supporting electronics - probably in that order.

2. Just as you can have too much size you can have too much soundstage in my opinion. The combination of my setup and my room in conjunction with certain recordings can produce weird effects in terms of sonic placement. My ultimate example of this is Roger Water's Amused to Death on Vinyl which I have harped on about before. In simple terms this recording on my system places you inside the soundstage completly to that sound appears to emanate from all around, When voices recorded in stereo and played back on a 2 speaker system appear to come from over your left shoulder as you face the speakers something very peculiar is going on.

Add to that the fact that the piano appears to be hovering 10 feet above your head to the right of you and most people would agree that this is probably too much soundstaging.

It so happens that with the nature of the recording, which is something of a trip in itself, I can get away with this pseudo surround sound but I do find myself looking out for a white rabbit with a pocket watch....

[horonzak]

maxg Soundstage sondfild it seems that when you tilt or shift your speakers, orlean back into your chair the polar pattern from your speakers will change both horizontal & vertical. A shift of just 5 degrees can change mid & high frequincies conciderably. Mic polar patterns act the same way. Cardioid mics are most problematic. Also at some recording sessions all musicians are not playing at the same time. Rythem & bass come in one day keyboard & brass the next, and vocal on another track. Some times over telephone lines or sattelite. Than mixed. ( the Hobbit movie sound track was done that way) Ive seen where parts of a recording was done in one studo and the master taken across the street to another studio with different room size to lay down a vocal or chorus track. Soundstage begins at the studio IF ANY. Image large or small starts here too. Some Diva,s ego gets in the way & wants to be more prominent in the mix. Some speakers can exagurate or subdue this balance. Some will give good dynamics like horns. Planers give mutch less. Hell I can piss louder dynamics than planers.

[Wapawekka]

My Cornwalls have never created a wider higher deeper soundstage than when I followed the Golden Triangle formula as described here: http://www.cardas.com/insights/index.html

When situated ideally, the fronts of my Cornwalls are 5 feet away from the back wall. Unfortunately, my listening room is not large enough to accomodate situating my speakers that far from the walls while still keeping my wife happy so they generally have to sit in a less ideal position.

Regardless of how the soundstage was achieved in the studio, proper placement of the speakers will take advantage of all the imaging the sound engineer was able to create with his mix.

[RobLikesTubes]

My former VonSchweikert Research 4.5s did a pretty fine job in the soundstage dept.

When I decided to try the Cornwalls for their much higher sensitivity, I wasn't quite sure what to expect.

I can tell you that the Zen/Cornwall combo is the best imaging I've achieved in my current listening room. Every person who has sat and listened to the current set-up agrees.

The depth/width/height of the soundstage is nothing short of breathtaking.

I was always impressed with the Zen's ability to create a holographic soundstage, the horns really show that off.

Recordings certainly have much to do with how that image is presented. But recordings that are done right, come across as very "real" and "live".

A solo instrument will just "be there" not left/right/center , just "there" - you can almost reach out and touch it.

I've been able to get much more depth out of this combo all well.

Orchestral recordings particularly have blown me away with the ability to place the aspects of the percussion section deep, deep, deep in the back of the rest of the orchestra, with the other instruments falling just where there should be. beautiful.

[maxg]

Are those Zens integrated amps? I only ask as I have the Decware ZTPRE and am very happy with it.

Should, I would have thought, be a good match for your amps too....

[RobLikesTubes]

they are the "Select" version of the SE84C. I'm using NO pre-amp.

My turntable set-up is currently on hiatus, so with only one source (CD), I am able to take advantage of the gain control provided on the Zens, and not have to to use ANY preamp.

Having this direct a signal path has proven to be a very good thing, indeed