EICO HF 81

[kjohnsonhp]

Remember when the EICO HF 81 was all the rage on this board? I think one sold for around $600.

I see several on ebay today.

Did anyone ever compare it to the Scott? I recall Kelly wanting to do a shoot out.

I think they have dramatically different looks but for those looking for a low cost integrated tube amp it might be time to revisit the EICO with the Scott getting more lime light today.

I'm curious as to feedback on the EICO now that many have had it awhile.

[Chris Robinson]

KJ,

Well, a "shoot out" is a relative term. I had Jeff Caban (JCTurboT) and his Scott over here and we played some tunes ... We agreed that the sound was different and that our needs (sonically) were divergent.

As far as a shoot-out with the 299's, I think that's been done here but I can't put my fingers on it. I'd suggest a few searches and see what happens.

I think the result was that they are both WINNERS.

[NOSValves]

I have listened to some 10 or more HF-81's factory wired to rats nest !!I have ABed both many times with many different parts combo's installed. I have also listened to many of Scott's I rebuild both often. I have 4 HF-81's in house right now ! They are a sweet sounding amp to a point. They lack the punch, headroom of a Scott or a Fisher and others I won't go into. Some people like to attribute this to transperancy I think its a lack of lower end or presence and the HF-81 is easily duplicated by simply raising the treble a notch and lowering the bass a notch. Is it correct or better sound that would have to be up to the listener. They both sound very good. What really tipps the hat toward the Scott would be the phono section the advantage is more clear in this area. also a valid point to be made is that most HF-81's are kits so there is more gamble involved in the purchase. Being in the lower price range of the Kits of the era wiring job can be extremely different from one amp to the next.

All in all its up to the buyer really !!

Craig

[JCturboT]

Yep ,Chris is dead-on in his remarks...I would say if you like Jazz/Classical and need more of a dead quiet "smooth" sound the Eico is the amp of choice here.

If your a metal head like myself,and need more of the "slam" factor then the Scott is right up your alley.

Really,either one would make a great amp and I would have no problems with either of these fine Vintage Integrated amps and besides-think of the conversation factor when the friends stop by.

Craig would know better than anyone as he is the guru of Vintage tubes restoration on this board.

Jeff

[kjohnsonhp]

Just for the record, I'm becoming a big Scott fan. I've been listening to the 222c and now that I have my new MMF5 TT conneted I've been thrilled...I like my SACD/CD player, too but I just can't seem to stop listening to records. I guess that's because I have so many and I listen to CDs in the car. Keeping the dust off them is kind of a pain.

I like the Scott looks--especially with the wood case and gold knobs. I'm trying to get a Scott pre-amp to mate with my ST-70.

I also like the looks of the modern Wright Sound gear but I'm not sure about 300B or 2a3 since I haven't heard them. The mono8's on audiogon are tempting.

The EICO seems like a good performer,too. The Scott just seems to be a better fit for me.

I would like to learn more about Conrad Johnson and Audio Research. The ARC SP16 is plain but seems to be a good performer w/HT pass through and phono. CJ is of interest because they are so numerous yet I don't read about them here.

[Clipped and Shorn]

I just hooked up a recently upgraded Eico HF-81 (from Craig) to my Klipsch Cornwalls and am listening to the latest by Bernardo Sassetti. The sound is sparkling clear in the mids and highs with as much round tubey bass as I have ever heard from the Cornwalls. I am liking it for most CDs. This Eico is still breaking in and it is growing on me. This is for CDs going into the AUX input. Cannot say that the sound is quite as good with the phono section. So I would have to agree with Craig's observation, although I haven't yet done my own comparison with a Scott. That's next.

c&s

[Chris Robinson]

I've run my Wright phono pre-amp into the line section of the -81 with excellent results. The line section of the Eico is really its strong suit.

I also upgraded the caps to cerafine (slightly larger capacitance) and the bass really solidified (not that it was mediocre before).

Just some tweaks.

I still have my fully restored HF-81 on the bench if someone is interested in buying it (I'm on again, off again on whether to sell it ... I love it. I just have too many amps in the house now with about $4000 worth of new Lessard gear about to show up).

[jtice]

I have been quite pleased with the HF-81. It's clear, transparent, dead silent and just has a tonal quality that is way beyond what I expected. It has good bass paired with Chorus IIs and plenty of headroom for my type of listening. The sound is so smooth that I don't perceive how loud I have it turned up until someone comes into the room and tries to speak. One reason we don't hear as much about the HF-81 is that its most vocal proponent is no longer vocal. Meanwhile, there are happy eico owners rediscovering the music and not thinking too much about hardwarea good place to be.

JT.

(who evenually wants to own one of each)

[NOSValves]

Jtice,

The sound is so smooth that I don't perceive how loud I have it turned up until someone comes into the room and tries to speak.

I just love that statement it is worded perfectly and describes what a system should sound like. I sit back on this board often and read people saying they can only stand to turn there system up so loud. I think to myself well there is someone that has a weakness in there system somewhere. I truly believe that if everything is just right loud is not loud anymore !

Craig

[Chris Robinson]

I think JTice's comment is well conjured too. I like listening to music in the upper end of my "comfort zone" but it's only when I have the house to myself since the wife and kids prefer things a little quieter.

Craig, I understand your point but I think everybody has a comfort level for db's that isn't related solely to sound quality. My system sounds wonderful and smooth to me, like JT's above, but there is a point where I start focusing on the db's coming at me and less the music. I like the volume point where all the instruments are right there and well articulated, the bass has a lot of running room, and the room is filled to the brim with notes. Another 25% above that point I find a bit distracting.

Just my opinion.

[kjohnsonhp]

tjice,

How loud does this statement hold? I've heard 3 Klipsch Heritage sytsems recently and many store demos of nonKlipsch systems with my SPL meter. I have had the same sensation you mention many times but once the SPL at the listening position gets in the 90db's (>94) I start to sense "loud"...especially on Klipsch.

This is a good thing because it would be harmful if my ears didn't tell me when I was in danger.

I'm mostly speaking about songs like Eagles "Hotel California"

Craig's comments are true as the louder the volume the more the weaknesses of the room acoustics and equipment is highlighted. Each improvement I've been able to make on my system has increased the quality of sound with deltas most notable at 80db or above and my db comfort zone is increased.

I'm also more sensitive than others...Dave Mallett for example can ring my ears on his system at his live performance level of choice.

I also think Klipsch is a more "forward" and revealing speaker where I can take a "laid-back" speaker like the Onix Rockets to 90db with a Denon 3803 and Panny rp91 w/o any issues. These laid back speakers don't seem as loud...

[kjohnsonhp]

It's good to read about all the happy EICO experiences. This amp seems to be much easier to find and cheaper than when Kelly was pushing it hard and the bidding on ebay was getting too high. It's good to read that his recommendation seems to be verified.

[ShapeShifter]

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On 6/6/2003 7:39:19 PM NOSValves wrote:

..also a valid point to be made is that most HF-81's are kits so there is more gamble involved in the purchase...

Craig

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I'm and EICO HF-81 fan, but I certainly agree with Craig's point of caution above. Individuals should be aware that the level of expertise and quality of workmanship for many of the EICO kits assembled can vary from excellent to excruciatingly dismal. Poor workmanship and years of operating at far less than optimal specifications will likely result in substantial restoration costs. So folks should try and get as much info as possible about a units history.

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On 6/8/2003 10:21:40 AM Chris Robinson wrote:

....there is a point where I start focusing on the db's coming at me and less the music. I like the volume point where all the instruments are right there and well articulated, the bass has a lot of running room, and the room is filled to the brim with notes. Another 25% above that point I find a bit distracting.

Just my opinion.

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Given my preferred music taste, I can certainly identify with Chris' opinion. I often find that at the upper volume level, though the music is clear and detailed....I'm keenly aware that I am no longer in the music, what I notice is that I've become more aware that there's a louder presence of music coming at me. At that point I am no longer focusing on or absorbing the music, thus the distraction has taken over the listening experience. I do recognize that given our varying music preference's and level of tolerance, some are more capable of handling continuous hi-octane listening levels. Just make sure someday you'll be able to hear them sing Happy Birthday to the grandkids...without a hearing aid.

[jtice]

kjohnsonhp,

I can't quantify in terms of SPL just how loud that comfort level is. All I know is that I can be listening at what I think is moderate but have to turn it way down to have even a brief a conversationthis is more kosher on good hair days, if you know what I mean. Once I reach that level that Chris describeswhere any more volume would be more distracting than enjoyableI still have quite a bit left before I would actually percieve distortion. But since I don't have the SPL references all I can say is that, for my preferences and with these speakers, headroom is just not an issue, as it may have been in previous decades.

J.

[Parrot]

This may be too obvious to mention, but I'll mention it anyway. The only thing about loud that bothers me is when something that is naturally fairly quiet, let's say a solo cello, is played back extremely loud. Same for a female jazz singer. It's not going to sound right if you have her played back a lot louder than she was recorded and mastered at. By the same token, a loud rock concert recording is not going to have been mixed and mastered by someone listening to it real quietly on monitors. So it's probably going to have to be played back loud in order for the balance to be correct.

I like to play back stuff at the volume that seems natural for the content.

[Flux]

Someone is finally 'getting it'.

[NOSValves]

Oh I agree that some music isn't best played loud but a very large percentage of music is played on the loud side in any live venue. On my system I find it almost impossible not to want to turn it up I attribute this to quality source , preamp and amp with massive headroom !! I defy someone to make my amps audibly distort before your above live concert levels with any reasonably well recorded source material. Also my sound field, Warmth, space between the instruments you name it none of the effects lesson with higher SLP. Craig

[kjohnsonhp]

My favorite live performances were almost always loud and I would often wear cotton in my ears since I attended a lot of rock shows in my college radio days. Sometimes I would wear ear plugs. In no means do I want to recreate that volume.

I think the room size and treatment has a big contribution to the enjoyment at higher sound pressure. In a lot of systems I wouldn't say I'm complaining about distoration. Perhaps the room acoustics are part of the problem as I image there's a lot of reflection and wall resonance in a small room at that volume.

I was listening to $15,000 Kef 207 speakers yeseterday with Krell Showcase electronics and a $1100 Sony SACD player. The Police SACD was playing and although it wasn't distorted the volume was clearly too loud. I've heard this exact room about 10 times and this was the first time I didn't love it. I didn't measure the SPL but it was a lot louder than what that store normally would demo at. I'll have to listen again and think about the right words to describe it. I just know that by turning the knob down the enjoyment increased....maybe this is similar to the comment Chris and others have made in the posts above. The bass and the highs were not as pleasantly blended with the rest of the mix. This room is normally that example of being seamingly quiet until you tried to speak.

[Clipped and Shorn]

"It's good to read about all the happy EICO experiences.  This amp seems to be much easier to find and cheaper than when Kelly was pushing it hard and the bidding on ebay was getting too high.  It's good to read that his recommendation seems to be verified."

I do not recall him mentioning how compromised the phono section was, the funky "focus" circuit, or the slighty overly tubey bass. His raves often underplayed the "pig in a poke" you might actually end up with from buying someone else's kit. One way or another you have to figure on at least $500 by the time you get this thing going, that and a can of brass polish and a can of spray paint. More if you want a bunch of NOS tubes.

c7s

[jtice]

I went out and bought the semi-matt paint and metal polish, unhooked the amp and put it up on the benchbut I just couldn't do it. This little amp, however ugly it may be compared to a modern, chromed out SS piece, is handsome in the way of a bull terrier. After much internal conflict and debate I decided that its appearance is part of its character and the way it looked in 1959 is essentially the way it will look for the forseeable future. Too bad the same can't be said for its owner.

J.