easylistener Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I have been running mine with a denon 4802 which has 170wpc in stereo. I just add some NAD2200 to my system for the fronts. I listened to one in stereo first, not much differnt then the denon and very easy to get the clipping lights to come on. Then I bridged both NADs using the pre outs of the denon. Let me tell all of you, what a differnce. They come alive. Great everything. Just don't turn them up to high because these amps have enough power to smokem. If any of you ever have an chance to put a large amount of power to them, jump on them. The only bad thing when you do this is you wounder what the RF7 sound like with 400wpc through them. I am thinking of getting a couple more amps for the rest of my 7.1 system. Thanks John Malotky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Dan, I think you should change your screen name from easylistener to highvolumelistener or heavydutylistener or something to that effect. Im glad my good old 2200s went to a good home. Enjoy. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Uhmmmmm, what do you mean by bridged? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 Indeed bridging receivers??? I was also wondering. clipping lights??? A receiver of the class denon 4802 has plenty of power to drive klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 8, 2003 Author Share Posted June 8, 2003 I didn't bridge the reciever I did it to the NAD2200. The 4802 does have power but it is nothing like this. The bass and midrange is so much tighter and defined. I am a true believer that you need alot of good clean power to make the speakers sound the best they can. If anybody wants to come over I will give you an A and B test. I know you will agree with me aftor you hear them. Yes I don't know how to spell, sorry. Is there anybody out there that is with me on this one. My wife can even hear the difference and she is tone deaf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j-malotky Posted June 8, 2003 Share Posted June 8, 2003 I also gave easy a few pointers on how to use the bridged 2200s. One of the reasons I like the 2200 over all the other newer NAD amps is that they have a LAB input which allows you to bypass all the softclipping and ultrasonic and infrasonic filtering giving you a 400 watt fairly flat amp. It leans tword the mid and lower frequencies, but gives great definition compared to many other amps of the same class. And the rated 400 watts is conservative. You can toast your speakers very easily using these amps. Overall the NAD 2200 is one of the better amps to get into separates with. JM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I read this http://207.228.230.217/info/NAD_2200.pdf Impressive though. But there might be more at work here. Cables?? Damping factor This damping factor can be influenced by the cables. For the denon lets say the output impedance is 0.08. That is a DF 100 for an 8 ohm speaker. If you add the cable resistance to the output impedance you get a lower DF. Cable resistance is 0.05 (which is already very low). DF is 61. This has its inpact on the bass and midrange. Maybe with the NAD bridging this effect is minimized. I have some doubts about The bass and midrange is so much tighter and defined since my last project with my RF-3s. Read in Odds and Mods the topic Unleash the power of RF3 and RC3. The RF speakers are original not able to produce really tight bass. Moreover a lot of the lower frequencies are absorbed by the panel vibration of the cabinet itself. You can hear sound coming from the cabinet which compromise the overall sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 I looked at your tweak. It looks very nice. How do you fasten the braces, you don't nail or screw them in through the cabinit do you? I tell you what if that made a big differnce then Hook up a good powerful amp and you will $hit your boxers. I would be very interstade in doing a mod like yours drop me a email and we can talk more. If you guys that own RF3II want some more out of them get a big amp. I think it balances the whole speaker out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 I forgot that the RF3II are able to produce tight strong bass. Give them some power and they shine. I also thought that the denon had plenty of power. My father has a system and I wanted it to sound like his, everytime I went to his house he would play his fortes with 250wpc audire amp. They sounded so powerful. He told me that I needed more power. I told him that he was full of $hit and that it was because he had better speakers. I finaly decided to take him up on his Idea. So I bought Johns amps and 400watts turns the RF3II into a completely differnt speaker. It still isn't as good as the fortes but it is coming close now. You don't have to play them loud to hear the differnce you hear it all the time. More headroom. I think it makes the 3's more of a flater speaker. To me they were always a little to loud in the highs, and lacking in the mid and lows. Before you upgrade your speakers run some power through them they may suprise you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Well the braces are glued with high quality polyurethane construction glue, no nails and a lot stronger!! For tight strong bass you need a good braced cabinet. You will hear this also even at low volumes. Also to me they were always a little lacking in the mid and lows. (Specialy when hearing B&W nautilus 803 and Sonus Faber Guarneri) But now they are of a different class. (Even higher than the RF-7) Even the highs are more accurate and very revealing. This is has something to do with the separate enclosure the horn has now. Off course you need some powerful amp. But the rated power of the amplifier doesn¡¦t mean anything. An amplifiers output voltage should remain flat in its operating frequency range( 5 -100kHz for the pioneer). Some amps can according to the load and phase shift drop in output voltage. I found denon always to bright with klipsch. (A college changed its denon for a marantz 9200SR to drive his B&W nautilus 803, what a difference in the lows he said) Onkyo was Ok. Pioneer is even better. Maybe the NAD¡¦s ¡K. º But still you may throw all the power to a speaker. If it is not braced well the cabinet will vibrate. Some frequencies are absorbed other (unwanted from the cabined) are send into the space. Hey why bridging. Try to do bi-amping with those NAD¡¦s. Just enjoy the tweaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Uspark I take it you don't like my NAD amps? I had the 3's bi amped and I tryed biwireing, it just didn't have enough power. I understand the cabinet thing because mine do move when driven hard. I just don't think that recievers have the quility in there amps. There is sum exceptions that I have heard from others, B&K and Sunfire. These are so expensive. I have talked to alot of people and they seem to agree. Have you tryed your speakers thru some high power quility amps? I know there are a lot better amps than mine, but for the money they are great for me. I may think of bracing the cabinet like you did and see if it makes that much of a differnce you say they do. Did you take the whole cabinet apart to fit those braces in? How do they comapart? Did yoy use liqued nails? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 No No, I didnt say that I dont like the NADs. They can be even better than my pioneer. Probably they are in case of difficult speakers. Yep, but expensive amps like sunfire, Krell, must boost a lot of power that is clean to drive large and difficult speakers that are in a larger room. I think that such an amp would be overkill for the RF-3s. For a B&W nautilus 800 it is a different story. The drivers in that speaker are very difficult to control, specially the woofer which has a lot of phase shift. Most amplifiers will break turning the volume with such a phase shift. There are many 3D graphs in magazines showing the voltage output in function of the load and phase shift at a specific frequency. Those graph should be flat. Before I purchased my pioneer I looked at such a graph and it was as near as flat. Sure there are better amps. I dont see my pioneer drive a nautilus 800. LOL But still the speaker should be of the same class. (I auditioned the RF-7 at my local dealer. They were each connected to sunfires. Dont know the model. Well, the RF-7 are not bad at all, but I could here the cabinet vibrating. This definitely alters the sound impression of the recording. The bass (it was a recording with deep bass) is very boomy. The sound was smeared around due to the panel vibration which results in a less localisation of the instruments.) There are other factors as well. The speaker wire is certainly very important. It can ruin the damping factor resulting that bass and mid are out of control. Maybe I will try a separate amp (rotel RMB-1095 or the 2 channel versions). I like my system simple though. Because the more equipment the more problems like ground loops causing humm, connection problems, . About the bracing. No panels removed and no nails used. The woofer hole in the front panel is just as wide as the inner cabinet wideness. So each panel could easily go through the woofer hole. It was indeed a puzzle to get all the panels in place. All the panels (in total 6) are glued together with high quality polyurethane construction glue with the support of fine braces on each side of the panels. Very solid. I could lift the hole speaker by just holding one of the panels. So you can not see any difference with an original RF-3 on the outside. Only when you lift one or let them play you will notice the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Usparc Let me ask you a question does the bass hit you in the chest? I am 255 and it takes a lot to get it to hit me in the chest. Now it can jump start my heart with out the svs. The denon could get the chest pounding in my wife but not me. I would think if the boxes were not braced it would realy distorte when hitting that hard. Maybe I am wrong I am not an expert, but this makes sence to me. Sorry for the spelling I have no spell check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msaiba Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I am driving my front RF-3s from the preouts frony L/R of Sherwood 8090 receiver thru B&K ST202, Can I also connect the speaker output L/R of the receiver to the same speaker to make them bridged. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 You can biamp the speakers. You can use the B&K for the lower and the reciever for the tweeter. I don't think you will get much better sound that way. Most recievers you can not bridge. How do you like the B&K with the 3's? Is that the 200 wpc model and are they 3II's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USparc Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Easylistener, Yes, the bass (if there is) can hit me (really hard and tight). With some records (with really low frequencies) I can feel the bass right under my sofa (listening position) going through my chest. I was nailed to the ground when I first listen to my new RF-3s. There is no comparison to make with the original RF-3 not even with the RF-7 for that matter. You are questioning if the RF-3 are braced. Yes, they are. There is just only one brace in the middle connecting the side panels. Nothing more. Take a look at the RF3orignal.jpg picture under odds and mods. You can see that brace just at the top of the second woofer. If you have the chance to listen to more expensive speakers like the B&W nautilus or Sonus Fabers or maybe the heritage of klipsch ( didnt hear them up till now) you will know just as I did. But those are very very expensive like the klipschorn. Mmm, svs. You use a sub. Well I have the KSW-12. Good for HT, less for music. My RF-3s will blow away that sub. By the way, a sub is very difficult to integrate into a stereo setup unless you use it as a discrete channel as for ac-3 (dolby digital). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 I don't use a sub for stereo anymore. It is acturally really easy to intergrate a sub in stereo. I hadn't have any problems with it. It isn't real hard to pass up a ksw sub compared to the svs. I have heard heratage speakers and fortes very nice. I believe the refrence speakers have a differnt sound then them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 just a question to spur thought... why minimize box vibrations when/if you could use them to your advantage? i think it'd be really cool to construct a cabinet that resonates at a chosen frequency (like maybe inside the dip usually/easily created with crossovers)...and if u play the resonations of the box right, i believe u'd get results very similar to porting the speakers or even like a passive radiator! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jalen01 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Well, I'll have to agree that adding an outboard amp with these Rf-3's does boost the performance about 75% for HT\Music. Most of the "Mass Market" Recievers are all over-rated when it comes to wattage in my book. But, Most don't even get close to the rated output in stereo mode, much less all channels driven. I've heard it stated somewhere that "all watts aren't created equal. Especially when comparing AV Recievers to Stereo\Multichannel Amps." I ran a Comparson on My aging Pioneer d906s 100watts at 6 ohms (which is like 75watts at 8ohms I guess?) to my Rotel Rb 976 60 watts at 8ohms (pioneer as pre)for stereo listening, and there is no comparison really. The Rotel Wins hands down (bass, dynamics, & Overall spl's). Rotel\pioneer pre running Rf-3's= Bumpin' within first few notches of the dial. Pioneer running 3's alone= about 1/2 to 3/4 to reach same spls. *Note: I thought running My Rotel Bridged at 150watts X Front 3 channels was best option. But, I found out quickly that the RF-3II's were over powering My RC-3II that way. I now run my Rotel 60watts fronts & Rears and 150 watts for the center (sounds better this way). I recently spent time listening to My Buddy's New System which consisted of RF-7 set-up and The New Denon 3803. For HT We had to damn near max the darn thing out (-05 where 00 is max I believe) to obtain decent SPL levels in His 20 X 20' Family room. And that's using reference Movies like Saving Private Ryan & Gladiator. The 2 channel was pretty good. Don't get me wrong though. The Denon+Klipsch combo sounds really nice and smooth together. I also like the processor aspect of the Denons nice Efx & whatnot. But, I told My Buddy He May Need to add an outboard Amp if things don't improve after a few weeks (due to break-in). I was actually contimplating getting the Denon 3803 as my next AV Pre. But, With the MSRP at $1200.00 for the Denon. I think a better option would be to get a Outlaw 955(?) AV\Pre or The Rotel 1066 AV\Pre and keeping My Rotel RB 976. Heck, I could even add My New\Used Baby "MAC" in the mix If I had to. Jalen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easylistener Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thank you Jalen01 for you input. This is what I was trying to protray. I am not very good at expresing my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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