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Glider

Two center channels?

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Does anyone know if it makes sense to use two center channel speakers (one above and one below the screen)? The reason I am asking is that I am in the process of moving from just audio to home theater. My audio system was: a Denon integrated amp. a Denon CD and a pair of Chorus IIs. I decided to keep the Chorus IIs (fronts), and I bought a pair of RS-3s (surrounds), a RC-3 (center), a KSW-15 (sub) and a Denon AVR-3801 (receiver). I did not do any research before buying; I just went to the store and got the stuff.

After looking for information on speaker placing, I found some posts that led me to believe that perhaps the RC-3 will be overpowered by the Chorus IIs. I have not connected the system because I am still waiting on the TV, so I do not know if this is the case or not. If it is, what would be better, take the RC-3 back and get a KLF C-7? Or get another RC-3, place one on top and the other below the screen, connect my integrated amp. to the receiver and use it to drive the two centers?

Any input will be greatly appreciated.

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Having had the "two center" experience and having gone from RC-3 to C-7 using KLF 30 mains, I would suggest using a single C-7 and tune up your system with an SPL analog meter from Radio Shack.

I tuck my mains close to the RPHD 65" and use front surrounds to size my soundstage.

One good center should do fine. Positioning it above the set angled to the listening area is best for "high-range" enjoyment. Below the TV usually erodes the tweeter performance and muddles the apparent dialogue/background music separation.

But, fear not, you are on the cusp of some really sound entertainment. HornEd

------------------

"Klipsch by the Dozen"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Rear Six Pack:

KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Happy Ears x2!

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HornEd,

Thanks for your response, it was exactly what I needed to know. I will go with the C-7.

Glider

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i was posting a reply yesterday when WORK interrupted me! (the very idea!) i also am using ONE c-7 ctr and it works GREAT!! theoretically i've toyed w/ the idea of 2 ctr ch's to 'center' the sound at the middle of the picture, but one does the job well. ditto the reccomendation to balance the output of the one center w/ a sound meter and a test tone. my fronts (my children as i affectionately refer to them) are klf-30's. avman

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avman,need to run 50' of speaker wire to a surround speaker.Too far? What size wire would you recommend-14ga. or 16ga.? Thanks,

Keith

Glider, use one center speaker only.

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keith, everthing i've heard says @ 50ft u should drop down to at least 14ga. wonder if that's audible though. smile.gif

the biwires for the listening lounge arrived today but they didn't send enough bananas.

they had some discontinued mcx2 biwire at the

dealer, so had them make me up some w/ bananas for the klf in the main room 2. regular m series for the c-7 w/ bananas.

will see how it works in the backroom before trying in main room (drilling more holes in floor - this biwire stuff is thick, bout 3/8 in. diameter). will keep u posted on the great biwire test. biggrin.gif

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster XP & Z series cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires/Bananas

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (power amp for RF-3)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

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boa, thanks for that info.I personally like 12 ga. or larger anytime,but the smaller wire will be easier to hide at mother-in-laws,if I get trapped into that installation.Hey,got lost in the evolution of your system but isn't that C-7 a late addition? Groovy center speaker,huh?Good luck on the speaker wire.Let us know what YOU think.

Keith

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Guest BobG

Dual center speakers...No Good. Adds 3 dB output but causes mucho interference and comb filtering in exchange for the possible centering of the image. Get the matching center speaker - all the time.

Multiple speakers playing the same signal means multiple source interference. Ever notice how the radio goes distorted and if you pull your car up just a foot or so the sound cleans up? (only while listening in the car...this is not a means of improving home radio reception) The cause is Multipath interference; the signal direct to your antenna is being messed up by the same signal bounced off some object like a nearby building or a more distant mountain. Same thing happens when you put a single speaker near a reflecting surface or have multiple speakers playing the same signal. It's all bad.

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16 gua. would do the job! heavier wire has been said to improve bass (important for those 'bright' horns)14gua. isn't necessary, but if it passes the asthetics commitee, then go ahead and use 14 gua., but 16 gua. is fine! avman.

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Glider,

I too have been wondering about this. I have a projector screen flanked by K-horns and height is a problem for me. 21" tops. A Belle is just too tall for my room, so I have chosen a Heresy over the C-7 as my center. One Heresy is OK, but two "seems" to be a better match. So far, I'm satisfied with the side by side dual Heresys. I just need to decide if 4 or 16 ohms would be better with my Denon 3801.

Haven't noticed the mulitpath problem Bob suggested, but then the Center audio radiates directly into a large sectional sofa.

Mike

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Glider,

I too use a pair of center speakers. I can't put anything on top of the TV (WAF), so I have a pair of SF-1's on either side. I did notice the extra output as Bob mentioned and had to back down the center volume, but I haven't noticed the interference. I usually sit in the same spot when I watch TV, so maybe I just got lucky with the sweet spot. I will move around a little tonight to see if it makes a difference. I wired them in parallel, and haven't noticed any problems with the Yamaha yet. As a side note, my old Yamaha RX-V590 was set up to handle two center channel speakers.

------------------

Jim

SF-2 Mains

SF-1 Center (pair)

RS-3 Surrounds

RC-3 Rear Center

KSW-10 Subs (pair)

Yamaha RX-V1 Reciever

Yamaha CDC-655 CD Player

Toshiba SD-1200 DVD

Toshiba TN50X81 50" HDTV

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the C-7 is the best center NO DOUBT!

This message has been edited by montigue on 07-04-2001 at 04:07 AM

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Glider, BobG is right on and then some. If you have seen some of the threads that talk about "tapered arrays" in center channels, that is what avoiding multi-paths is all about. One woofer is set to roll off before it hits the vocal frequencies... thus if you use two center speakers... one should be set to roll off to keep dialogue clear. The C-7 has a tapered array the RC-3 does not (I tried one before finding the C-7).

Another reason against two center speakers is that a disproportionate amount of HT sound is funneled through the center speaker (upwards of 70%) and adding a second center compounds that potential problem.

Along the same line, one of my pet peeves is that center channels handle so much material... yet they are usually smaller than one's mains... which tends to negatively affect the tone & timbre in pans across the mains.

Of course, sometimes matching the mains in tone & timbre mean having such a massive center that the sound imaging match to the screen can get awkward and ugly... that is part of why centers are the size they tend to be. But, on the other hand, it does not make a whole lot of sense to spend thousands on your mains, surrounds and rear effects... when 70%+ comes out of a speaker that only costs a couple of hundred dollars. From that viewpoint... I am very eager to hear the RC-7 in an up close and personal way. It is something you might think about while you are waiting. cwm22.gif

Be well. HornEd

PS: I added some more Legends since the last post. BTW, I used to live at 73rd & 5th and was walking on the edge of Central Park just across from the Dakota just in time to witness the death of John Lennon. I also did some consulting work with gangs and landlords to improve neighborhoods on the Lower Eastside... almost didn't survive... but in the end things were better... except for a broken neck from falling out of a loft bed! The nice thing was that the gangs kept my NYC Klipsch collection safe... but that was long ago.

------------------

Living Legends

KLF 30 L&R Mains

KLF C7 Center

KLF 30 L&R Surrounds

KLF 30 L&R Rear Effects

KLF 10 L&R Front Effects

Subs: KSW-15 + 3 KSW-12's

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

and such... Tweak On!

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-10-2001 at 10:32 AM

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The C-7 has a tapered array (so is the new RC-7), the RC-3 does not (I tried one before finding the C-7).

Sorry HornEd, but you are wrong here. The RC-3 has infact also the tapered array. Look in the technology feature of the RC-3 or in my thread "What 's wrong with the RC-7.... ". In this thread PhilH stated that the RC-3 and RC-7 have the tapered array.

I give this last one because when I went to the "Technology features" of the RC-3 to see if the Tapered array was actually there(and it is) I also noticed that there is a big port. I know mine doesn't have one and the specifications mention that the RC-3 is a sealed enclosure.

Should I drill the port myself??? Smile.gif

Moderators can you clear things out.

About the 2 center speaker you are absolutly right.

Also I am very eager to hear the RC-7. It is almost an RF-3 and the specification let me know that it would be a very good match for my RF-3's.

------------------

-------------------------

Receiver: Onkyo 676

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3's

Rear: RF-3's

Center: RC-3

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I'll take your word for it USparc. That is the thread that I apparently incorrectly remembered... and I do appreciate your calling my attention to it. In retirement, I am not the critical thinker I once was... and have to learn to check up on myself more these days. I need to revisit that thread... it seemed to me that one Klipsch center was noted as not being a tapered array. (I revisited the thread, and indeed, it was the SC-1 that was not a tapered array. The RC-3 was the first Klipsch tapered array. I sit corrected. For decades, I made a living by my wits... operating at half speed is not fun Redface.gif)

I did indeed try an RC-3 prior to the C-7 and think that the C-7 is a better match for the Legends... and to my ear, I thought dialogue clearer on the C-7. In fact, I continued to use the RC-3 as a Rear Effects speaker until given the opportunity to trade it in for full value on another set of KLF 30's.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, this is one time that "x" stood for the unknown and "spurt" was, indeed, a drip under pressure! cwm8.gif HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-10-2001 at 09:48 AM

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Guest BobG

The KLF-C7 is not a tapered array.

One should not make drastic modifications - such as porting a non-ported enclosure - unless you are prepared to throw away the finished project or convert back to the original configuration. If a speaker is not ported, it is meant to be not ported. Leave well enough alone.

Minor tweeks are fine. Want to play with wire? Go right ahead. Other similar stuff is benign as well. Modifying the basic box tuning? No Way.

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Hmm, thanks BobG, I kneaded that! Looks like my head isn't a tapered array either... but it sure beginning to feel that way! Biggrin.gif

And, come to think of it, just because you think you can afford the downside of brain surgery self-taught doesn't mean it's a worthy use of one's time and resources.

cwm40.gif Then again, I think it was Col. Sanders who said, "If at first you don't fricassee... fry, fry a hen. cwm28.gif

HornEd

This message has been edited by HornEd on 06-10-2001 at 10:47 AM

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BobG,

About that port thing on the RC-3.

I just wanted to point out a minor mistake on the specification features of the RC-3 on this web site.

Moreover I never would alter a klipsch speaker. They are designed by klipsch and stay that way. As you said Minor tweeks are fine.

HornEd,

Tapered array or not, it's the sound that counts ... cwm29.gif

------------------

-------------------------

Receiver: Onkyo 676

DVD: Pioneer DV-525

Screen: Thomson 46" RetroProjection

Front: RF-3's

Rear: RF-3's

Center: RC-3

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