Bruinsrme Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Hi, Since my subwoofer cables have been wired through the walls I am thinking of relocating the wall box to better hide the cables. No brainer so far. I can purchase .5 meter sub cables and make a shorter power cable. BUT being a powered subwoofer it needs electrical as well. so here is the question(s). By code can the sub cable jacks and receptical co habit in a dual gang box? If not what is the minimum distance of seperation for audio cable and electrical junction boxes? (not the cables themselves but the boxes. thank you Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOZ Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 By code, I don't know, but I wouldn't do it anyways in fear of any disturbance to your sub signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 I did think of the interference but then I looked at the wires from a doubters point of view I thought. With the current config, the sub's power cable was on to of the sub audio cable and there is about 3 feet of power cable on top of the sub cable and on top of that the power cable is inches from the driver terminals. Then I looked at the back ofthe HT where there are power cables, Interconnects, subwoofer cables, video cables and speaker cables having an orgy. If this is within code I might try it and see what happens. I am open for any suggestions. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 firstly, there are few if any code restrictions regarding low voltage. and no, as long as both cables have equal INSULATION ratings all will be well, they just want to insure the electrical does not interfere with the signal cable. and it is not a good idea anyway, noise, everyone here will tell you that, plus it makes trouble shooting or moving your cables dangerous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Whoa! There are definitely code requirements for low voltage wiring in most parts of the U.S.A. If your local electrical code is based on any half way current flavor of the National Electrical Code (NEC) there are definite restrictions on having high voltage (115V) and low voltage (audio, doorbell wiring, etc.) in the same raceway or box. They have to be separated by a partition. The reason for this should be clear. You don't want your speaker cables accidentally becoming part of the power system. You are also probably required to use appropriately listed cable in the walls, CL2 or CL3 and keep speaker wiring at least 2 inches away from power cables. 12 inches would be better if speakers cables are run parallel to power cables to minimize noise picked up by induction but is not required by code. There may be other requirements. If you have any question about what is safe, or legal in your jurisdiction, I suggest you contact a local licensed electrician or building inspector. Equal insulation ratings?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JewishAMerPrince Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 I beg to differ Malcom. MARKSDAD is correct under NEC for residential. Insulation ratings being equal one can run line voltage, low voltage, phone cable etc into one junction box and have separate terminations. Nowadays this is commonly done in "structured" wiring systems. The problem is getting proper insulation ratings...generally speaking this is 600V. I don't think many speaker cables out there that actually carry insulation rating markings...they must be marked on the jacket...except for the kind used by professionals. JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reel 2 reel Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 malcolm is correct....low volt,and, line voltage are not allowed in the same box, unless there is a UL approved partition....also speaker cable ran through walls need to be CL2 or better, wire at least thats how we do it here in michigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 AFAIK structured wiring does not include high voltage, just audio, video, phone, low voltage control, etc., on coax and twisted pair. Smart House hybrid cable covered by NEC Article 780 does include high voltage. But that is a different animal. I don't think Scott is talking about structured wiring here, anyway. What he is considereing doesn't appear to be permitted by the 1999 NEC which is the law for the next couple of years where I am. Don't know if the 2002 NEC permits it or not. But not many jurisdictions have adopted it yet. And the J boxes I have seen that claim to be compliant with the 2002 NEC and allow a power connection in the same plate as a structured wiring connection are essentially a high voltage box siamesed to a low voltage box. There is a partition between them. Like I said before, Scott, if you have any questions check with a local licensed electrician or inspector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted August 17, 2003 Author Share Posted August 17, 2003 I have checked with a master electrician and it is a huge freaking no no to run anthything but electrical into an electrical box. Signal/data/audio/video must be run seperately from electrical. There are exceptions but not what I was aiming for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted August 17, 2003 Share Posted August 17, 2003 Way to go, Scott! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 it all depends on " jurisdiction" if you read your code it does state " exceptions" those are the killers, inspectors depending on how they feel get you on these all the time, but it is common practice to combine differing volatges in boxes, and conduit runs, i do not like this i have seen people get bit by 277, while servicing fire alarm cable, and as j.a.p. sytated the determing factor is insulation rating, and i do believe the cables mentioned are specked if not run in conduit, conduit runs negate some requirements since they offer a high degree of protection to the wire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksdad Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 plus the code section you guys speak of states there is no need for a divider unless the combined voltages are over 300 volts to ground, so this takes us back to insulation ratings, i had this discussion the other day at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoliaster Posted September 1, 2003 Share Posted September 1, 2003 ---------------- On 8/18/2003 4:55:24 AM marksdad wrote: it all depends on " jurisdiction" if you read your code it does state " exceptions" those are the killers, inspectors depending on how they feel get you on these all the time, but it is common practice to combine differing volatges in boxes, and conduit runs, i do not like this i have seen people get bit by 277, while servicing fire alarm cable, and as j.a.p. sytated the determing factor is insulation rating, and i do believe the cables mentioned are specked if not run in conduit, conduit runs negate some requirements since they offer a high degree of protection to the wire ---------------- In regards to seeing 277 and fire alarm cable in same raceway or junction box, this is a clear violation. Commonly done does not equal correctly done. There is more to it than just equal insulation types (eg voltage rates.) There are several types of circuits. Please see: Class 1, Class 2, Class 3, Remote Control, Signaling and Power-Limited circuits in NFPA 70 (AKA the NEC Code book). The best answer given, was check with authority having jurisdiction (Local inspection office most likly.) In most locals (under the NEC) placing the speaker wires in the same box without a UL listed devider is a violation. This is because they are of a different class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruinsrme Posted September 1, 2003 Author Share Posted September 1, 2003 In the area I am living the practice is not to run the cable in the same raceway. It is common to have 120v recepticle and a low voltage signal sharing the same wall plate but not the same box. Meaning using a dual gang box adapter it allows the user to use a single gang box for the 120 and an open low voltage connection. So it is acceptable to have them sharing a dual wallplate but not the box. With that said it is acceptable to run the 120 and low voltage into the same box but there must ba a partition butnot recommended. To make it safer for the end user the practice is to use the adapter plate and a single gang box for the 120v. What will I do figure out what sharing the same race way means and using the single box and adapter method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTYoung Posted September 2, 2003 Share Posted September 2, 2003 A raceway basically is any space designed to hold wires. This could be a conduit (metal or PVC) or it could be the space between 2 studs in you wall (as well as several other things). Unless you had the wires in seperate conduits they would probably be considered as sharing the same raceway. In reality the way most houses are wired these days, unless you know where the end of a circuit is you could end up having 120 in a low voltage raceway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@silverfox@ Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 Seperation of class 1 from 2 or 3 is a requirement 2&3 may occupy the same raceway. You would be better serve to provide 2 seperate raceways or by using the stud as a devider & place each outlet box next to each other at point of attachment. I'm superised that F/A and 277 are occupliny the same conduit.its not eaven good pratice to mix 120& 277 although they have the same voltage rating!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoliaster Posted September 3, 2003 Share Posted September 3, 2003 The space between studs is not considered a raceway. Article 100 (NEC) defines a raceway as: An enclosed channel of metal or nonmetallic materials designed (here's the kicker) EXPRESSLY for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this Code. The studs are not there expressly for the wire. As you stated it is very common to see low voltage and 120v in between 2 studs or other such spaces common in housing. This is not a violation as they are not in the same "raceway," hence there would be no need in running them in seperate conduits in such an application. <-(NOT to be read as "they can be in the same conduit"!!) As a general rule when running low voltage cabling such as TV, stereo and/or phone parallel to 120v(or higher voltages) it should be kept at least 1 foot (if possible) away from the 120v line. When crossing 120v lines try to do so at a 90 degree angle as well. This is to help prevent the EMF (ElectroMagnetic Field) around the 120v line from inducing noise into the low voltage cable. Didn't mean to add to the complications of this. The plan of running you stereo wires to your single gang box with its 2 gang adapter is a sound plan (no pun intended!) The wireing can be ran in the same stud cavity, but do try to keep as much space between them to keep your sound signal as clean as possible. For all intensive purposes the term raceway doesn't apply to your application. Good luck and thanks for serving. Silverfox you are right (as if you needed my validation) you also beat me to posting. This is in reference to the previous post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.