maxg Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Sunday I spoke to the importer of the Shelter 901. We talked about the setup of the cartridge. Seems things are not quite as simple as I thought. I had setup and installed the cart in 15 minutes flat - er...no. He explained some of the mysteries of the cartridge to me. First off, as opposed to every other cartridge I have tried the VTA cannot be setup using the body of the cartridge as a guide - you need a magnifying glass and a lot of time. Apparently Shelters are not good at aligning the needle itself with the cartridge body - so although it looks perfect on the usual cross-hatch scale it probably aint. Further - forget running the arm parallel to the surface of the record - you have to jack its butt way into the air (about 3 degrees up at least). Then there is the tracking force - 2 g is way too much - try 1.5. Once you have done all of the above - give it a listen at 100 mF setting with 100 ohms. Then tweak (as in adjust everything and observe what happens to the sound - check particularly for movement within the soundstage and bass definition). So, thus armed with new information I set about the cartridge. 5 hours later (wife and baby at childrens party - house to myslf) I got close to what I think this thing should sound like. The good (ish) news is that the disparity between left and right channels is much reduced - sadly though - it is still there (apparently a not uncommon problem with Shelters). Right now I am running with the volume control on the left channel about 2 clicks higher than the right and it balances (compared to 5 before!!) Sound is a combination of breath-taking and slightly strange, although that is in comparison to the Clearaudio so who knows what is strange and what is proper? Definition of instruments within the soundstage is pin-point. and strings sound like stings more than strings do. The bass is much fuller, but, I dont feel it goes quite as low as the Clearaudio did (this is odd - the Shelter is supposed to have reference level bass reproduction) - I was expecting more all the way around not just a fuller sound. Orchestral works are splendid with lots of "air" around the instruments, but, nothing is in quite the same position as it was with the previous cartridges (any of them). This means that either they were all wrong, or, something is still amiss. It doesnt sound like anything is wrong - it sounds wonderfull - but different - who the hell knows? Really bizare is "Amused to Death" my pseudo surround sound recording. Whilst it is still very much surround sound different items are at the back and front. In other words when listening previously an instrument that used to appear to be behind me is now in front and another that was in front is now behind. The voice distribution has, however, not changed - or doesnt appear to have done. On other recordings voice is nicely centred, but slightly further forward than they used to be (actually this is common to the old BPS I used to run too - so maybe is is the clearaudio that pushed them back). Voice texture is much better. It seems more real somehow and a lot of the details that were missing have suddenly appeared providing a somewhat startling wavering tone to some singing that is new. I'd like to think that this wavering was merely being glossed over by the other carts and that this is reality. I hope this is it - have to get Tony over (he used to have this very cart) to listen and confirm. Overall then I can say this - it is different, almost certainly much better and a sound I think I will live with very happily. Of course now would be a good time to read my sig... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Your comments make for some interesting reading. Especially for someone that makes do with a sony turntable. Nevertheless, it sounds like a lot of fun. Peace, Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 20, 2003 Author Share Posted October 20, 2003 Well after that slight interuption in service: Thanks Josh, Still - you cant let all this rubbish get in the way of the real business - that of buying vinyl!!! I came, I saw, I did a bit of shopping: Bach Brandenburg Concertos 1,2 & 3 - RCA Camden Classics (Victrola). Bach Brandenburg Concertos 4,5 & 6 - RCA Camden Classics (Victrola). Gershwin Rhapsody in Blue - Philips (from The Netherlands) 1812 Overture - RCA Red Seal (UK) Mozart Grand Mass - (Teldec, Germany - digital but you cant have everything) Mozart Symphony No 35 (Haffner) and 39 - Montreux - Synchro (Germany) Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21 & Eine Kleine Nacht - EMI UK Richard Stauss - Der RosenKavalier - EMI UK William Wolfram plays Chopin - Various - Polish (who knew?)!!! Chopin Piano Concerto No. 1 / Liszt Todtentanz - Colombia Masterworks (USA) Chopin Les Sylphides / Thomas Hamlet Ballet Music - Decca (digital again) Schubert Trout - Turnabout Vox (?) USA And: Godley and Creme - Goodbye Blue Sky Peter Paul and Mary - Moving (including Puff for you know who) Chariots of Fire - OST Not bad for $85. Actually the Guy has some 20,000 records in stock but he is trying to get out of the business and concentrate on selling the Boh'eme Record cleaner ($1200) so he offered to sell me all his records for 80,000. There are several real collectors items in that shop (original Kinks, very early Jazz of many artists etc.) Probably a good deal but not right now. Still - he did demo the cleaner on all of the above records for me!! He'll even clean any record I bring to him for 70 cents a disk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnalOg Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Max, The issue on the bass, is this cart new? I don't recall from the original thread. My guess would be a breakin issue, based on your comments of things sounding slightly wierd and light bass. I experienced this when I changed out my cart the MM Ortofon OM super 30 to the Ortofon MC X5. I almost thought I couldn't live with the lack of bass. After about 40 hours, it has settled in to a nice natural tone that rivals the punchy nature of the Super 30, the "wierdness" was also gone in the first few hours of use. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Max, channel imbalance can also be the result of a less than perfect azimuth setting (i.e. the angle between cartridge and groove is not 90 degrees - hope I got that one right LOL). Even if one thinks that the cartridge is straight on top of the grove, it's only with the help of a mono signal and a tape recorder that you can really be sure to get both channels equally loud - even if by eye you'd say that the cartridge has been misaligned! I don't know if your arm allows adjustment of the azimuth, but when I checked my Rohmann yesterday, I was surprised that adjustment by eye simply wasn't precise enough. Good luck with your new toy. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted October 21, 2003 Share Posted October 21, 2003 Max, Tom makes a good point - the cart will take about 200hrs to really break-in and that's when you will hear what it can do. Also, you're right about the 901 being known for its stellar bass reproduction so I would look elsewhere for the problem. If the cart is getting a bit long in the tooth you (which is very doubtful given that the cart is a recent offering) you will hear a loos of detail in the highs first and then the bass will get "woolly". The Shelters are not very sensitive to VTA adjustments but you may want to drop the angle a bit and see if that results in more bass - too much and you'll lose some of the detail (its always a compromise). On these carts, setting the azimuth is critical so you should check and re-check and then check again. The only other suggestion would be to get the Record News Test record if you don't already have it. The record will help you dial in the tracking, azimuth, and VTA among other things and I find it very helpful after getting through the intial learning curve. Have fun and keep us informed of your results and impressions. I'm leaning toward the 901 as my next cart and I'm very interested in your experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 22, 2003 Author Share Posted October 22, 2003 Quick update: I think I have got the Azimuth setup right now (although I still cant be sure) working with a large magnifying glass and a length of cotton with a nut hanging on the end (actually a nut at both ends but that is a whole other story). As I know the table is perfectly flat I used the cotton to establish the perpendicular and adjusted to that. OK - now on to the ever stranger: I noticed that playing a record the image drifts as the record plays. In other words If I set the singer to be centre stage on track one of the record, by the last track the singer has shifted to the right as I look at it. I was convinced for the longest time that this was to do with VTA or Azimuth or something that wasnt set properly and that therefore the angle was changing as the arm moved across the record. This is actually not the case. As it turns out this cartridge seems to warm up. In other words on playing the first side when I start listening this shift occurs. Re-playing the same side, having set the image to be centred on the last track and the effect disappears and the singer remains centre stage throughout (bizzare huh). I have now observed this 2 nights running. 2nd bizare observation: I listened last night to the Rach 3 piano concerto. This is a piece I know very well on an audiophile record that I have never had much truck with. On previous listening sessions it always seemed a bit dead. This time, however, it really sounded wonderful - except that the image was a bit compresed into the centre. I was not getting the full width of the soundstage (in comparison to the sound I used to enjoy with the Clearaudio). Just out of interest I tried reducing the toe in on the speakers to the point that they are almost head on. BINGO. The whole thing just opened up. Suddenly the expanse of the music not only filled the entire space between the speakers but it overflowed. Concurrently, and this is the thing that amazed me, the depth went stellar. I had more depth with less toe-in (the exact opposite of all my experiences to date). After that I listened just about all night. I couldnt get enough of this thing. One recording after another, from Elvis to the Beetles to Beethoven to Jennifer Warnes. Didnt get to bed till 5 am. Of all the tweaking over the last few days this was the one. Who would have thought that a cartridge would require adjustment of toe-in on the speakers?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Max, something similar happenened when I set up the Heresys in my study. The sound opened up considerably when I pointed them straight ahead. It all depends on the listening position in relation to the speakers. Just one comment on the azimuth. Believe me, checking by eye isn't the most accurate method. You cannot even be sure that everything is really symetrical inside the cartridge, so if you can get hold of a tapedeck, use a mono track an check if both channels are really equally loud. Your remarks on the warming-up of a cartridge are new to me....and if that's really the case, how will you solve the problem - listen to the first side of a record twice? Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Seems to me the "warm-up" issue might disappear as it breaks in with use. Sounds like it won't take you too long to get a couple hundred hours on it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Wow, great post. I just ordered a MMF-7 and can't wait to try some of your tweaks. Will definitely be demoing some different tunes though. How did you stand hours of concert music? Where is the high stepping, wake me up, want to dance or play guitar music? What bands did you try for more life? Not being rude here but I am still trying some of the classical stuff this Forum has provoked me into buying. Its different, I like it, but can only take a few songs off of any album/cd before I have to substitute some life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Oh you have got to be joking. I just lost a huge post answering all the questions issues raised here. Goddammit!! OK in brief this time: 1. the channel imbalance issue is not the Azimuth - the needle is fairly self-correcting in its very clever mounting. 2. the warm up issue seems to be real. I experienced it again last night. I am not sure it would be as noticable if the channel imbalance problem didnt exist. 3. the cart has played even less than I thought - according to tony (the previous owner) it may have played as little as 40 hours. According to the importer it needs 300 hours to run in. 4. Classical music is an acquired taste. As most of my listening is done at night with wife and baby asleep it is more appropriate than MJ's thriller. Wake me up music is for weekends only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tillmbil Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Bigbusa is the Thriller fan, I like Steely Dan and Dire striats for the wee hours. Maybe a little Dianna Krall or NOrah Jones thanks to this Forum. For Rock -any music from the 80's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 23, 2003 Author Share Posted October 23, 2003 Thriller was just an example having read a post by BB. I would be more likely to play PF and Roger Waters solo stuff, maybe Dire Straits - I have a number of their albums, or the Who, Beetles, hell even Elvis on ocasion. I have a great quality Elvis on RCA - something like his greatest hits volume 2 - best collection album qualitywise I own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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