RF3 problems...I need advice!

[Olaf]

I just purchased a pair of RF 3's and The sound is not what I expected. They sounded great in the showroom and I spent a month doing research on these speakers. I read hundreds of reviews and decided that they were the speaker for me,but I'm somewhat disapointed with their performance thus far.

The first thing I did was bi-wire them because that is what seems to be reconmended. I'm using older speaker cables that I've had since the early 80's. They are called 'Smoglifters' if anyone remembers them. They're 12 guage braided cables and gave immense improvement to my 'Advent Legacies'(original model).

I notice the RF's have a boxy,shrill,canned,harsh,ear piercing, annoying and fatiging sound even at low volume levels. They seem to lack detail and warmth and the soundstage is almost non-existent and all the intrustments seem to muddy up when all are playing at once. In other words, they're very unnatural sounding.

Now I understand that the RF's need to be 'broken in' and the undesirable aspects of the speaker will dimishing with time and the overall sound will improve with age. I was expected them to sound as I described above,but not to the extent that they do now.

I've experimented with different placements since I have the advantage of having them in a 30' x 36' room.

The room is non-carpeted and I have tried with and without the spikes. There's not alot of upolstery but my old 'Advents' sounded really good in the room.

At this time I'm extremely disappointed with the 3's but am willing to give them time and hope for improvement.

I'm running them off a Yamaha RF596 reciever so I don't think the amp is the problem.

So far I believe I've done everything proper and I hope 'aging' will mellow the sound and improve their performance.

If anyone has any advice I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!

[Guest BobG]

I believe you have several problems here.

First, get rid of those Smoglifters speaker cables. Their electrical characteristics are very tough on an amplifier. I remember them quite well as I sold and used them a long time ago. They make a particularly bad match to your Yamaha receiver. I think regular old zip cord would be a better choice.

Next, the older Advents you have as your sonic reference were great speakers in their day (I owned a few pair) but as your sonic reference they set you up to find any speaker with extended highs (which they lacked) to be unnaturally bright and detailed.

Finally, the room you are in also would seem to tend toward bright and underdamped. The combination of Amp, Speaker Wire, Room and high detail speakers is a poor one. To fix, get different wire, add any damping possible (carpet, upholstered furniture, wall hangings etc.) to your room and listen for a while to the new setup. You will ultimately reset your sonic reference and then will find the Advents lacking in life and detail. I'm sure it doesn't sound acceptable at the moment.

Keep us posted on the process and hang in there, the results will be worth the effort.

[Olaf]

I should have known about the 'Smoglifters.' They were given to me by an financially 'well to do' old friend in the early 80's. He had a Yamaha with Cornwalls and that's probably why he got rid of them. At the time I was using an Onkyo TX3000 and the cables seemed to work fine with the TX. I forgot I had them and just dug them out a few days ago. I'll try the zipcord since I used it for years anyway and had good luck.

When I first considered buying the RF's,I knew the listening environment could be an issue but I wanted them anyway. I have some ulpostery and some wall hangings but probably not enough and I took that into consideration when I first heard the RF's in my environment.

Since my first post,I've been experimenting. My old Onkyo was setting next to the Yamaha just in case the Yamaha blew another tranformer. So I switched to the Onkyo to try a different music source. The improvement was immediate. Some harshness left and a bit of warmth was restored,also the detail was much better. Since I bought the Yamaha I've had buyers remorse and wish I would have returned it. Perhaps Onkyo is a better match for the speakers.

I've been thinking for some time about dumping the Yamaha and going back to Onkyo because I like Onkyo's sound much better.

I know the RF's are a fine speaker and I was not implying in my initial post that they are crap,because they're not!...:-)

Thanks for the adice and suggestions and as I 'Tweak' the RF's I'll keep posting! :-)

[samuel r]

hey there Olaf, about 1 month prior to purchasing my rf-3's, i listened/demoed a pair of paradigm monitor-9's. that was the very last speak i listened to along w/ quite a few others in the $700.00-$1200.00 price range. i must admit they sounded beautiful(through NAD system) but didn't seem to hold up at higher volumes unlike the rf-3's. just after i left the store, i demoed the rf-3's down the road. they sounded like absolute garbage. now i don't want to sound insulting, but they were being played through a low end yamaha. don't know which model, but cost around $300.00. i've heard these speaks previous to that and knew they sounded better, especially through higher current, better quality amps/receivers. i'm not much of a yamaha fan, so i don't know about the exact model you own. but anyway, could it be the amp/receiver. once again, i'm not downing your yammi, just giving my own input to try and help. i would not lose faith, don't give up on them. when you finally get them right, you'll be running around in circles in front of them like a dog does when it's owner comes home.

[Olaf]

samuel...I think the amp has alot to do with it too. I'm using a Yamaha RX596 model. It's 85 watts a channel and I still regret buying it for $399. The RF's do sound better through my 21 year old 45 watt Per channel Onkyo though. I hate to say this but they sound just awful so far.

I'll just keep tweaking and hope the RF's age gracefully as I understand they need a break in period but I never heard of that before.

Even the Smoglifter cables just seem to be braided 12 gauge zip,but BobG recommends plain zip so I'll try that too.

Thanks samuel!..:-)

[samuel r]

just gotta change that amp/receiver unit. i'm running mine through a denon avr4800 and they sound soooo sweeet! as far as i know, the receiver your using is similar to what i may have heard them through when i thought i was going to puke all over the soundroom.~ anyway, they will sound mint when/if you make that MAJOR change. i'm sure many others will highly agree. as they say, the speakers aren't at fault, they are only reproducing the true sound your amp/receiver was designed to put out. if the receiver is one of the "lower-end" models, then it will produce lower end sound. if you plan on upgrading it and want to stay under $1000.00 budget, i would HIGHLY recomend a denon avr2801, or the 3801 for an all-in-one receiver. good luck.

[samuel r]

just as a reminder Olaf, check out the "audioreview" website if you have yet to do so. there are 124 reviews on the rf-3's and has a 4.74/5 avg. that alone may help you find sonic bliss in the bosom of your speaks.

[Olaf]

samuel....yup!! I spent many hours reading the reviews at the audio review website and this one too! I know they're great speakers because I heard them at 3 different dealers. My wife and I toured Pa. after using the dealer locater on this site. We drove as far as 85 miles to find one! At one time,there were 4 dealers within a 30 mile radius of here ,all but 1 went under. I guess they were victims of the mass marketing retailers such as 'Circuit City.'

I always checked what type and model of amp they were running them through and only one used a higher end Yamaha. I haven't liked that thing since I bought it and I've been thinking about selling it for some time now.

I think what I'm going to do is give them time to 'break in' and if there's not much of an improvement,I'll dump the Yamaha. I'm sure that's most likely the source of the problem.

thanks again samuel and BobG!

[Olaf]

OK!!! I found the problem!!..:-)

It's spelled Y-A-M-A-H-A. I spent the afternoon switching everything over to my old Onkyo TX 3000.

The RF's sound absolutely outstanding on that 21 year old amp. I know it's not an audiophile quality amp,but it puts that Yamaha to shame with only half the power and it sounds superior. I'd like to hear the RF's on something with superior quality. That must be pure 'ear candy.'

It's all there now...crisp natural sounding highs,depth,imaging,detail and punchy bass,the way I like it.

The harshness is gone along with all the other problems I described in my first post. I actually have to add 'treble' to everything instead of turning it back as far as I can.

Did I mention...'soundstage?'

If I knew for sure that Onkyo still made recievers on par with my old one,I would rush right out and get a new one.....their mass-marketing concerns me though.

For sale...one garbage Yamaha reciever. 'Sounds' like someone rattling an old tin box!

Thanks for the help everyone!!

[boa12]

olaf, i think you've found the beauty of a nice high current source to klipsch speaks. i have my rf-3 hooked by A-B switch to both a newer sony de935 & my old kenwood stereo receiver from the 70s (160WX2, dual power supply). the old ken brings out the sound & imaging so much more than the easily compared to sony, it's simply amazing.

not to say u have to use an old amp at all as i found w/ the new marantz sr8000. they, denon, onkyo to name a few turn out some high power amps like yesteryear. even sony & yamaha do too on their higher end models.

if i had it to do over, i'd probably put more emphasis on a unit w/ an adjustable sub filter under the bass management. most receiver makers still haven't caught on there - sticking w/ that set thx cut-off of 80hz or higher. shame having to set large main speaks to small for analog source listening along w/ a sub to avoid that bass overlap, cancelation, standing waves, mudiness,... ok i promise to drop the raving on that.

------------------

Klipsch KLF 30 (front), KLF C-7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnects & Monster CX-2 biwire & Z-12 cable

Marantz SR-8000 receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

Boa's Listenin Lounge:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Monster MCX Biwires

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage 1975)

Russound AB-2 receiver switch to RF-3

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd changer

Technics direct drive turntable

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

This message has been edited by boa12 on 06-11-2001 at 08:41 PM

[klipschnut]

I too have the RF3 speakers hooked up to a Yamaha 5240 Receiver. WAAAAy too harzzzzzsh! I noticed right

away when I hooked them up how much more thin they sounded than my KG4s using an older yamaha integrated amp. Electronics really do make a big difference.

I have ordered a Denon 2801 . bye bye Yamaha!

[kmijeski]

Please let me know what the deal is with Yamaha products. I purchased a Yamaha 5150 over a year ago and I seem to be happy with it. I am running the Klipsch 10.5 with them. They have a similar configuration of the RF-3s. I am happy with the sound with my home theater and two channel audio. But is there something I am missing? Another thing - where can I get "classic" speaker matches - I am looking for a center channel for my 10.5s. any suggestions?

[dougdrake2]

kmijeski - You can find suggested matching speakers for the classic Klipsch's no longer in production by looking at the Classic subheading under Home Audio on the main web page. Select the KSF-10.5, and it shows the KSF-C5 center and KSF-S5 surround. Although those are no longer made, they sometimes pop up on Ebay or some of the other on-line classified listings. They will probably have the best tonal match to your main speakers, which is important for a nice front soundstage.

Doug

[kmijeski]

Doug, Thanks for the Suggestion. Also who was that e-mailed me with the C-5 Center channel?

Keith

This message has been edited by kmijeski on 07-02-2001 at 08:40 PM

[T2K]

Hey Keith,that was me,Keith.Should have my e-mail about the C-5.As I said,the C-5 sounds better to my ears than any of the centers I've tried.That includes the KV's,C7,and S6.If you care about HT,get one.

Keith

[kmijeski]

Keith, Keith here. Have you listened to the ksc-c1. If so how does it compare to the c-5. are they similar at all?

[T2K]

Keith,no haven't listened to the C-1.Would imagine the C-5 would sound much better.Check the specs.Also check the speaker matching chart in the Products/Home Audio/Classics section of this site.Save yourself time and money.Get the matching center.Very important.

Keith

[JewishAMerPrince]

I had a similar feeling about my RF-3s when I first got them (previously had Kg 5.2's). They definitly improved over a very short period of time (about 2 weeks of constant use). Then I replaced my Sony Receiver with a new Denon 3801, and boy does that setup sound sweet!

RF-3 fronts biwired

RC-3 Center biwired

Energy 12" 200w powered sub

IW 150's side surround

2 Quintet's for rears

Denon 3801

Toshiba DVD

Sony VCR

Sony CD Jukebox

Hitachi Ultravision 53" monitor

[JayS]

This thread died down a few days back, but I would like to revisit it. I just received a pair of RF-3's yesterday, and my opinion of their sound is identical to Olaf's at the start of this discussion. Here's the rub: amp is a Denon 3801, 12 gauge copper zip, and comparing to my *old* Atlantean 3-ways, the RF-3's have NO mid-range, no soul, no warmth, especially in classical music, but applies to all music. I have not bi-wired them, and intend to, but I don't think this will address the issue. What can I do to fix this? I'm seriously thinking of returning them, even though I thought they sounded so great in the store.

Are the RF-3's, without a mid-range horn like the higher end Klipsch's, just not going to have any warmth to them?

Thanks for your input,

Jay

[Klipschguy]

Poor Yamaha. I think they're getting a bad rap on this BB. My Yamaha RX-596 stereo receiver performs very well with my Cornwalls and has a warm, mellow sound in the mids and highs (everybody who has heard my system agrees). Bass is outstanding. Heard a Chorus I with RX-596 (extensive listening) and they too took on a warm, mellow sound, with deep bass. My old Carver - man you want to talk harsh with NO bass. Previously had tubes - great mids and highs (similar to RX-596), but lacking in deep bass compared to the Yamaha. The Yammie is a good unit with decent high current capability 200W/CH into 2 ohms. Low noise with 110dB S/N ratio and a bass control that boosts the lows at 20Hz - leaving the bass unmolested. Everybody else (Denon, NAD, Carver, Onkyo, Marantz, et cetera) boost the lows at 100Hz - yuk - terrible with large speakers (Cornwalls have a peak at 100Hz anyway, if you want a little bass boost you don't want it there). I almost always listen to my speakers with tone defeated, but movies are a different story.

I listened extensively to Denon, and to my ears, and with my speakers, it didn't come close to the Yamaha. I did like the Denon, though. Before you get any ideas that I like my speakers "bright", I don't. I grew up listening to big Bozaks - the definition of mellow sound (still have a pair, listened to them last night).

Most complaints I've read about the Yamaha involves the RF-3 speakers. All the same complaint - too bright. Well, I'm beginning to wonder about the RF-3. It has a titanium diaphragm in the tweeter which are a notorious for harsh sound - I had some titanium diaphragms in a pair of speakers and found them overly bright and hard sounding, especially when reproducing a "silibant S." Read: harsh. Maybe the Yamaha is making those titanium diaphragms sing in an accurate manner, while your old Onkyo's are rolled off in their highs (leaking output caps after 100's of hours) making the RF-3's more tolerable.

All the Klipsch speakers I've heard with the Yamaha have phenolic diaphragms with dedicated midranges and tweeters, and they ALL have had lovely, mellow, warm sound reminding me of good tubes. "Natural Sound Receiver" to my ears is quite fitting to the Yamaha's receiver name.

I guarentee you that if any of you heard my system you would say "Wow, the Yamaha sounds great with your speakers, I wonder what the problem with mine is."

Anyway, sorry about the soap box routine and I'm not trying to put down the RF-3s, so if your happy with them, please don't yell at me. It just I see the same complaint over and over again about the Yamaha/RF-3 incompatability and see it bleeding over to "Yamaha sounds bad with all speakers" advice.

Any dissatisfied Yamaha owners out their. Do this. Take your Yamaha to a friends house and hook it up to a pair of Cornwalls, Chorus, La Scalas, or K-Horns and listen.

Warm regards, forgive me if I seem overbearing,

KG