Parrot Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 Dean just pointed out a 20-watt SET amp in another thread. I've seen them up to 100 watts. But typically when people talk about SET here, they're referring to around 3 watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I think 300B is a absolute if you want to be able to achieve the anything near the same volume. At about 6 on the Scott dial your pretty much using all of its 20 watts can produce cleanly but this should be really cranking. At 3 or 4 on the control your under 10 watts of total use. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubinhard Posted December 27, 2003 Author Share Posted December 27, 2003 "Even with the efficiency of Klipschorns, anyone going the SET route is severely limiting what kind of music he can listen to with justice done to it. Yes, if you want to listen to a recording of a solo lute player in a small room, you might be able to squeeze by with SET. " Man, am I actually going to have to come in here and defend SET? I don't know Paul, most of what you say is true, but GOOD SET amps really aren't THAT anemic. I just don't think they are the best choice for Rock, Pop, and large Symphonies. Obviously, the more complex the music, and the bigger the room, the greater the challenges. Complex music just chews through power (place higher demands on the amp), and large rooms just soak up the output. I just think a person really needs to THINK about their listening habits before going into it. "...if you want to really take control of the air in the low frequencies, the idea of using SET is ludicrous. You can get the same dB level with two different set-ups but be hearing completely different presentations. All I can figure is that a lot of people like a weak and dainty rendition of music." I certainly agree with the former, and I think this where they suffer the most -- when needing to completely load a room. However, this is again related to music types, and the latter part of your statement might be more accurate if we say many people enjoy "delicately beautiful, charming, or exquisite works (dainty). The rendition only becomes "weak" when the complexity and demands outrun the amp. It is true however, and I've said it often myself -- All 90db steady state readings on the Rat Shack Meter do not sound equal. "All speakers are inefficient to some degree--watts you put in do not yield the same amount of acoustic watts. Klipsch recommends having the capability of 5 acoustic watts in an average sized living room. With a 3-speaker array of two Klipschorns and a center Belle, this would be accomplished with each speaker being driven by a 20-watt amplifier. Otherwise, it's nap time instead of feeling goosebumps." We need to agree that many do not need five acoustic watts for their music, or to be thrilled by what they hear. For example, Leo listens to Chamber music, and I'm sure he doesn't need but less than 1 acoustic watt to render it accurately in his room. Some listen to Quartet Jazz, and again, probably no more than 1 acoustic watt is needed. I just think it's relative to position. Some of that music would put me to sleep if it was played at a 120db. "Klipsch recommends 20 watts minimum for all their Heritage series speakers. They do not recommend SET or any other low-watt amps. All loudness is not equal. To reproduce music properly instead of anemically, you have to have sufficient power. There is no getting away from the basic laws of physics by applying the so-called magic of SET." I don't remember seeing anything in the literature you showed us where Klipsch discouraged the SET topology, only insufficient power to reproduce large scale Classical properly. Am I wrong? I just got done reading some stuff on a DIY site, and I've decided it's ALL magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 You are correct, Klipsch does not discourage the topology of SET. But they do recommend 20 watts as the *minimum* for amplification. That eliminates *most* SET that people discuss here. The 5 acoustic watts comes in for reproducing anything you want to throw at your system in an average sized living room. It doesn't mean you have to use all the power, or would want to use it, for something simple and soft. But very few people are going to have multiple amps to switch in and out depending on the material demands of the music at hand, and even if they would have multiple amps, how many are going to bother to hook up a different amp to supposedly optimize the presentation for one CD they're listening to? I don't know why anyone would want an amp that can shine only with simple, quiet music. Plus, who wants an amp operating full out? That is not a good place to be; it's important to have reserve power. I enjoy "delicately beautiful, charming, or exquisite works" too, but I don't need a separate amp devoted to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 "You are correct, Klipsch does not discourage the topology of SET. But they do recommend 20 watts as the *minimum* for amplification. That eliminates *most* SET that people discuss here." Yeah, right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Rumors abound that the K-horn and Cornwall speakers work amazingly well with lower wattage single-ended tube amplification, the 20-watt requirement is simply a claim. I don't think that's news, many will tell you from personal experience that 3 watts is enough for most listening. Next topic please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 In the PP camp, there are believers and there are FANATICS! Hey Paul, your ears aint mean NOTHING! and ALL SET people are deaf since they aint got your ears! LOL. PS. This post is not an attack. I am simply acknowledging 1 zillion SET people are wrong and they have hearing problems. ONLY Paul is right since he got a pair of GOLDEN ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Here we go !! Just let it go guys. This is about what John may want. I asked how much power of a amp I know very well he uses to produce satisfying levels in his room. Obviously 3 watts is not going to do the extremes he is used too so I say go 300B. But if John thinks he would like to forfiet the higher SLP extreme for possibly better lower SLP sound then maybe a 2A3 would be right for the job. This is John's decision and really not worth the SET - Push Pull war. John has been looking at various offerings to move up the ladder from the ultra value and sweet sounding vintage Scott . He has eyed the Cayin TA-30 and with the feedback I have on this piece it isn't going to be a step up or down but just side ways for him. I wouldn't do it if I was him. I would suggest either moving up the SLP and power scale with something that could give excellant slam and control while still retaining great low level listening like my system is setup OR the other end of the spectrum with SET for the ultimate in low level and intimate listening. Just about anything else is going to be a side ways move for him. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 In the PP camp, there are believers and there are FANATICS! Personal attack if I ever seen one !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubinhard Posted December 28, 2003 Author Share Posted December 28, 2003 Personal attack? Hell, I took it as a compliment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 3 watts in = maybe a half of an acoustic watt (with a Khorn) = an unimpressive sound field for anything demanding, although possibly adequate for a female jazz singer with someone tapping the piano keys and brushing the drum set. Golden ears? Not at all. Golden ears is when you can hear the difference between power cords. What I'm talking about is not subtle and anyone (with hearing) in the entire world could tell the difference. I think there is more interest expressed in SET here on the Klipsch Forum than anywhere else and that's because of Klipsch efficiency. With Klipsch efficiency certain things can be reproduced well with low watts whereas with typical speakers rated in the 80s and 90s, there's no way--there'd be no life or dynamics at all. SET has a devoted following but it is small, and disproportionately represented here because horn speakers are almost a requirement for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 appreciate similarities, respect differences.. After a 2A3 session, I'm going to see The Matrix Revolutions in Imax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neo33 Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 "What I'm talking about is not subtle and anyone (with hearing) in the entire world could tell the difference." Paul, this is exactly why I said SET people are DEAF and they all HAVE A HEARING PROBLEM because they CAN'T tell the DAMN difference! Your "song" is old, Paul. Lets it go. For God's sake, if they want to listen to "a female jazz singer with someone tapping the piano keys and brushing the drum set", then let them be! They're less fortunate (with their hearing) then you, so what? Well, as for me, after enjoying Bach's Brandenburg Concerti on my SET amps, I think I will go see The Matrix Revolutions in IMAX, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Haven't you already seen that movie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Heck he is the Star !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Damn, now I'm worried that my favorite large-scale pipe organ works by Bach, Franck, and Widor will snuff out my 8 WPC BEZ Model T3B 300B Class A SE power amp...I do like my music near live levels, but my room is small, so I think (and hope) I can learn not to ride the volume control to extremes. I'm in trouble, aren't I? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubinhard Posted December 28, 2003 Author Share Posted December 28, 2003 Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Dean, you don't beat around the bush, do ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 I think Dean was being a smart *** which is truly what he's best at ! I think you will be fine even though your supporting the 3rd world way of life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 LOL...isn't that the truth? Gotta keep those sweat shops runnin', but I think ol' Edmund Lam is doing okay for himself. I know Dean's only playin' with me...tee hee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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