The difference between Liberals, Conservatives, and Southerners...

[maxg]

Well spoted Gunman - seems I live my tag-line to the letter.

My only defence it that I was thinking and writing at the same time and both appeared to be logical conclusions at their relative points in the post.

I am not actually sure they are quite as mutually exclusive as we would like them to be. It will take some time for joblessness to rise to levels societies will have to make major adjustments for.

In other words - sometime in 20 years we could be facing the first major problem only to have it switch around completely to the second major (opposite in many ways) problem in 50 years...

Does that help?

[gunman45]

To give you an idea, the starting wage at McDs where I live is $7.35 per hour so we are not blessed with the 99cent hamburger deals! If you have a Big Mac Attack plan on spending the better part of a fiver and that is not for the meal!

[hwatkins]

Sorry for the break - but I edited this from the list of Darwin award nominees for this year. Just a fun little aside - smile and have fun:

Subject: New Darwin Awards

Hard to believe, but another year has passed... (For those who don't know about it, the Darwin Awards are awarded every year to the person(s) who died in the stupidest way, thereby removing themselves from the gene pool...)

NOMINEE No. 1: An unidentified man, using a shotgun like a club to break a former girlfriend's windshield, accidentally shot himself to death when the gun discharged, blowing a hole in his gut.

NOMINEE No. 3: Ken Charles Barger, 47, accidentally shot himself to death in December in Newton, N.C. Awakening to the sound of a ringing telephone beside his bed, he reached for the phone but grabbed instead a Smith & Wesson .38 Special, which discharged when he drew it to his ear.

NOMINEE NO. 7: <"The Indianapolis Star">. A cigarette lighter may have triggered a fatal explosion in Dunkirk, Indiana. A Jay County man using a cigarette lighter to check the barrel of a muzzleloader was killed Monday night when the weapon discharged in his face, sheriff's investigators said. Gregory David Pryor, 19, died in his parents' rural Dunkirk home about 11:30 p.m. Investigators said Pryor was cleaning a 54-caliber muzzleloader that had not been firing properly. He was using the lighter to look into the barrel when the gunpowder ignited.

AND FINALLY, AN HONORABLE MENTION: Two local men were seriously injured when their pickup truck left the road and struck a tree near Cotton Patch on State Highway 38 early Monday morning. Woodruff County deputy Dovey Snyder reported the accident shortly after midnight Monday. Thurston Poole, 33, of Des Arc and Billy Ray Wallis, 38, of Little Rock are listed in serious condition at Baptist Medical Center. The accident occurred as the men were returning from a frog-gigging trip.

On an overcast Sunday night, Poole's pick-up truck's headlights malfunctioned. The two men concluded that the headlight fuse on the older model truck had burned out. As a replacement fuse was not available, Wallis noticed that the 22 caliber bullet from his pistol fit perfectly into the fuse box next to the steering wheel column. After inserting the bullet, the headlights again began to operate properly and the two men proceeded toward the White River bridge.

After traveling about 20 miles and just before crossing the river, the bullet apparently overheated, discharged and struck Poole in the right ********. The vehicle swerved sharply right exiting the pavement and striking a tree. Poole suffered only minor cuts and abrasions from the accident, but will require surgery to repair the other wound. Wallis sustained a broken clavicle and was treated and released. "Thank God we weren't on that bridge when Thurston shot his balls off or we might both be dead" stated Wallis.

"I've been a trooper for ten years in this part of the world, but this is a first for me. I can't believe that those two would admit how this accident happened, " said Snyder. Upon being notified of the wreck, Lavinia, Poole's wife, asked how many frogs the boys had caught and did anyone get them from the truck. (Way to go, Lavinia).

Cheers

[syclone385]

Well said mdeneen, I would personally love to attend the Pilchuck school of glass in WA.

[gunman45]

Come now mdeneen, its all the corporations fault! I am sure that when the families of the folks that hwatkins listed above sue and receive millions upon millions of dollars you will raise your fist and shout It serves the corporations right. When in fact it is hard to believe those idiots lived as long as they did. There are thousands of frivolous law sits per year that dont make the local headlines. Some that do include the recent rash of suites against gun manufactures because firearms can be dangerous (well Duh). Thankfully all but a few have been dismissed and the remainder do not stand a snowballs chance in a warm place.

21 cases of hot coffee being served hot. Heaven help the corporation who serves me warm coffee when I order it hot. It will be an actionable offense!!

[gunman45]

----------------

On 1/9/2004 7:40:06 AM maxg wrote:

Well spoted Gunman - seems I live my tag-line to the letter.

My only defence it that I was thinking and writing at the same time and both appeared to be logical conclusions at their relative points in the post.

I am not actually sure they are quite as mutually exclusive as we would like them to be. It will take some time for joblessness to rise to levels societies will have to make major adjustments for.

In other words - sometime in 20 years we could be facing the first major problem only to have it switch around completely to the second major (opposite in many ways) problem in 50 years...

Does that help?

----------------

To tell you the truth, the scenarios are many and freighting.

Here is another one for youSomething I heard back in the eighties..by 2025 Chinas population will require all food products produced in the world.

[maxg]

MD,

I think I can see both POV's on this one. Yup there are certainly worthwhile lawsuits out there but there are certainly some nutty ones too.

There is something disconcerting about lawyers advertising on TV "Has anything bad ever happened to you??" type stuff.

Hot coffee that is too hot and causes a law suit is a bit odd to my way of thinking. When I make a coffee I boil a kettle and pour it over instant coffee mix in a cup. Cant quite see how their coffee would be much hotter than that. Yup - if I pour it down myself it is going to hurt - kinda goes with the territory. I tend to avoid gargling with Knives too.

I'm all for suitably sized punishments for corporations that have acted badly but the coffee thing I do not get.

Of course often quoted lawsuits may be urban legend to an extent. I remember being told of a little old lady (a suspicious start) who used to dry off her dog in the oven. When she tried to do the samething with a microwave it was curtains for the dog. She sued and won becuase there was no warning on the appliance. True? I doubt it, but you never know.

[maxg]

This is an apt article from Reuters that I just happened upon as I struggle to understand your American Political discussions:

"PARIS (Reuters) - Europeans may have some problems grasping the ins and outs of American politics at the best of times, but the transatlantic gap never gets bigger than when candidates in the United States start talking about God.

Democratic presidential front-runner Howard Dean (news - web sites) has started awkwardly discussing religion on the stump, trying to shake off a label many European politicians would covet -- the most secular candidate in the race.

The eight other Democrats jostling for a chance to challenge the openly religious President Bush (news - web sites) have also spoken up about their faith, Bible reading or church attendance to close their perceived "God gap" with the Republicans.

European voters accustomed to campaigns focused on budget deficits, pension problems or immigration would be surprised to hear a political candidate talking about praying, as Wesley Clark (news - web sites) has done, or being "God-fearing" as John Kerry (news - web sites) has said.

"If a politician were to speak of his faith on the campaign trail as American politicians do," said Austrian analyst Peter Hajek, "the population would react by asking 'Why is he or she telling us that?"'

"It would come across as odd if politicians spoke too much about their religious beliefs. There would be an embarrassing shuffle in one's seat," said James Ker-Lindsay at the Civilitas Research center on southeastern Europe.

"Europeans see it as a badge of honor that they have moved beyond religion, as a victory of science and rational thinking," he said. "This is something Americans find dreadful about Europe, that it is a godless society."

RELIGION RETURNS THROUGH BACK DOOR

That is not to say faith is not an issue in Europe, which saw such bloody religious wars in the past that most prefer to keep it out of the political arena. Talking about one's beliefs in public often backfires on politicians who do it.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites) has been lampooned in the press for being a committed Christian.

"People in this country are rather averse to individuals who seem holier-than-thou," religious affairs commentator Clifford Longley said.

Religion issues exist, as the debate over Muslim veils in public schools shows, but are often treated differently.

"Growing insecurity in the wake of the September 11 attacks is putting religion on the agenda through the back door," said Gero Neugebauer of Berlin's Free University.

While a Muslim veil may be accepted in the name of religious freedom in the United States or Britain, many in continental Europe see it as a challenge to the secular state.

A large German Catholic lay group this week branded the veil "a political sign against integration into Western culture."

Germany's secular emphasis is not total. Several leaders have spoken up against equating Islam with Christianity after President Johannes Rau, a practicing Protestant, said a ban on Muslim veils would mean Christian symbols would also have to go.

France takes secular logic the furthest. To ensure equal treatment as it struggles against Islamic radicalism among its Muslim minority, it plans to ban all signs of faith including Jewish skullcaps and large crosses from public schools.

"In France, this issue is considered one of separation of church and state," said pollster Stephane Rozes. "We don't think of satisfying lobby groups on an issue like this."

Even in Poland, home of Pope John Paul (news - web sites), the huge political role the Catholic Church played under communism is fading fast.

"The era when religion and Christian values played an influential role in political campaigns and politics has passed," said sociologist Jacek Kucharczyk. "Politicians no longer use religious slogans to win votes."

[Tom Adams]

There's nothing wrong with punishing corporations for willfully & intentially "hurting" someone. However, if anyone thinks for one single minute that the monetary award actually comes from the company coffers or outta the pockets of the investors, you're crazy. It's simply put on the company books as a "liability" and that liability is offset with some type of asset. Then the liability is eliminated by passing the costs along to the consumer. Life goes on without hiccup at the company. I know this for a fact - I'm married to a finacial controller.

I'd like to comment about Unions 'cause it's been literally weighing on my mind since yesterday. I truly believe Unions have a place in our society and that they can provide some serious good if they're practiced correctly. My company has squeezed & squeezed both white collar & blue collar folks over the last 3 or 4 years. However, what I struggle with is the adversarial nature that a Union brings to the table. Yeah, I know they and the company "negotiate" a contract. However, once the dust settles, there's a very real "us versus them" attitude that pervades the work place. I've worked in a Union enviroment, so I know what it's like. One minute we talk about man and his animalistic relationship with guns and violence and we want it to stop. And in the next breath we talk about wanting to beat somebody's brains in for voting a certain way. Anyhow, maybe my real problem is that 30 some years ago, my Dad worked for a facility service & support company that was contracted to NASA. One day the company he worked for became unionized. My Dad decided, based on his principles, to exercise his right to not join. We got harassing phone calls at home and he was left nasty notes on his desk at work. My Dad will tell you that the note that was left calling him a scab and a traitor shook his belief in this country and what America was all about. Why? Because my Dad fought in three wars for this country and as he would say, "I've been shot at and **** on by the best". How could anyone have the balls to call him a traitor when all he did was exercise his right to free speech by saying he chose not to join? But the straw that broke the camels back (and his heart) was when he came in one morning and saw a note from the union perpetrator that broke his ash tray into several pieces. A silly, badly made, ugly painted, clay ash tray with a hand painted "DAD" in the bottom that had been made several years before by his 4 year old son. An ash tray he took with him to Viet Nam, Europe, and where ever Uncle Sam sent his squadron. He brought it home and we glued it back together as best we could. But the thing that really broke that day could not be repaired.

Tom

[boomac]

Oh heck, it's just the insurance company's money!

[Woodog]

----------------

On 1/9/2004 10:30:47 AM maxg wrote:

This is an apt article from Reuters that I just happened upon as I struggle to understand your American Political discussions:

"PARIS (Reuters) - Europeans may have some problems grasping the ins and outs of American politics at the best of times, but the transatlantic gap never gets bigger than when candidates in the United States start talking about God.

----------------

mdeenan also wondered (I'm paraphrasing from memory here...a dangerous thing) how our politicians (notably the prez) could profess Christianity yet take such a violent and harmful international stance.

there may be an answer or two at this (ahem) tongue-in-cheek site.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1001/viciousgodquiz.html

woo

[TBrennan]

Before some of you guys cry about the MacDonalds coffee thing maybe you ought'a know the facts? You'll fine that MacDonalds was incredibly arrogant and uncaring and definately negligent. But you'll have to go a little deeper into it then simply listening to talk radio.

Tort reform seeks to take away the only weapon the common man has against powerful corporations; the sharp lawyer willing to work on a contingency fee in the hope of a share of large punitive damages. If caps are put on punitive damages YOU won't be able to get a sharp lawyer if you have to go up against some corporation or insurance company. But they'll still have platoons of the finest lawyers money can buy, the result is that you're ****ed.

I can't beleive how STUPID some comon people are as to not see this and go along with a program, tort reform, which is intended to screw them and benefit the big-shots.

[MrMcGoo]

In order to add some facts to the discussion, folks should know that the US Supreme Court has stated that punitive damages must be limited to single digit multiples of the actual damage suffered. The McDonald's case found punitive damages of two day coffee sales for the parent corp. Today, that would be a violation of current precedent, since two days sales had no relationship to the actual damages suffered. (BTW, the McDonald's grandma admitted that she caused her own injury through her own negligence.)

As I was reading this thread, I heard on TV that a man is going to sue his cable TV provider because cable has made his family obese couch potatoes. This will suffer the same fate as the lawsuit that claims McDonald's made the plaintiffs fat due to the poor content of their fast food. A judge will dismiss the claim before it gets to discovery, so a trial and high costs for all concerned will not happen. Such law suits are filed for publicity IMO.

Frivolous law suits like these cause ever greater restraints on law suits through "tort reform." Corporate America would prefer that we not be able to sue for any reason. I suspect that such frivolous law suits are welcomed by the tort reform camp. The publicity could not be purchased for any price.

Bill

[boomac]

Tom, I dont believe every conservative or listener of talk radio is interested in doing away with the ability to seek justice through the legal system. Call the right what you must but stupid wont get it. There are serious problems with the tort system and I believe much of it could be corrected if all parties were willing. Led by a Democratic Governor, Pennsylvania has made several changes in an effort to keep Doctors in the state. I wont get into the specifics as that isnt really the point. Lawyers are like everybody else. They will take as much as they can. One case they work for you, next case they work for me and for the record, I dont believe that there is anything inherently wrong with that. A reasonable cap or a consistent formula placed on specific injuries wont stop them from participation. Maybe the problem is with a jury of peers and the arbitrary awards they pass out. There sure isnt much consistency there. A guy gets injured on a crane and the painter who put the serial numbers gets sued. That crap happens too often and it cost all of us. Yea, we didnt get the whole story on the McDonalds deal and shouldnt jump to conclusions but you cant deny that there are inequities out there and its not only working stiffs, like us, that deserve impartial and equal treatment under the law.

mdeneen, In your example, $150K does not seem a fair value for a human life destroyed because of cognizant and wanton negligence.

But geez, Not only do you want to tell us what to think, you now want to tell us why we think the way we do. Who the heck are you? I guess a right is only a right when it suits mdeneen!

[TBrennan]

Boomac----You said-----"its not only working stiffs, like us, that deserve impartial and equal treatment under the law."

Of course. But as working stiffs our first job is to look out for ourselves,; trust me, the corporations and insurance companies know how to look out for themselves and will. They don't need your help though they do need your aquiesence.

Listen here, the whole idea of lawsuits and bloodmoney is to ensure social peace and tranquility. Let's say my son is killed by the negligence of a drug company. I NEED justice, I thirst for it, if not I may seek revenge. So I get a bunch of money from the company and my thirst for vengeance is assuaged. That's how things are supposed to work. But the corporations don't give a good Goddam about our social contracts, they want it all. If the corporations take this away from us people will start seeking older, less civilized forms of justice. People will start attacking corporate big-wigs and getting justice direct and juries will nullify the law and cut such attackers loose.

Nah, better to have high punitive damages.

[MrMcGoo]

mdeneen,

I am trying to remember the HIV tainted blood products cases. My recollection is that the manufacturers of the clotting factor for hemophiliacs were slow to test for HIV once the tests were available.

Many additional cases of HIV were caused by failure to run the tests when the HIV tests became avaiable.

BTW, the tobacco companies won law suits for many, many years while about 400,000 people died every year from their addition to tobacco. Evidence has subsequently shown that the tobacco companies try to addict children to their drug so that they become customers for their entire life. It has taken many years of litigation to get traction on big tobacco. Big corporate defendants do not lack resources to defend themselves.

Bill

[Clipped and Shorn]

I used to teach filmmaking at a local University here. That is how I met fini who was a star pupil. Another one of my illustrious students, Steve, went on to make a film relevant to the subject at hand. I think it is worth checking out.

A Civil Action

C&S

[boomac]

TBrennen,

I once conducted business with a major US Corporation that was subject to various law suits. Most of them were product liability but there were negligence suits as well. Though not my area, I worked with the guys that made the decision to fight or settle. On a few occasions, I happened to be there when offers were made and once I was there when an offer was withdrawn. I must tell you that the people I worked with were fair and far from the cold blooded corporate types that you describe. People are just people Tom. As I have mentioned to you in the past, some are good and some are bad. If a drug company knowingly kills a human being they need to pay and any sob that knew what was going on should be held accountable as well. No argument from me and most good people on the right or left. On the other hand, I dont believe someone should have the right to sue without just cause. It happens too often. Together, it would seem that we are smart enough to come up with solutions. Businesses and Corporations are people. Some good some bad. I hear people gripe about a corporation and go right out and shop at one of their locations. Geez!

[3dzapper]

A little different topic but germain to our debate, The EU has complained to the WTO that US taxes are too low v the EU and their expansive social programs. Max, no wonder you love Greece. You tax your citizens a third less than the US. Take a look at the loudest complainer and the most socialistic states.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_bud_rev_cap

Rick

[Clipped and Shorn]

Steve Zaillian is my most famous student. He is today "the guy" when it comes to screenplay writing. He is also occasionally the director as well.

Searching For Bobby Fisher

Fini was a natural, but more into the approach that Jonas Mekas (Film Culture Magazine editor) promoted, eg. a film journal akin to the tradition of "home movies", but like the old Zen parable indicates was somehow "more".

"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

- Zen parable

on Mekas

Amateurism

After meeting fini, who was born and raised in Petaluma, and after a few years living in Sonoma County California, I myself forgot about returning to Hollywood, bought a ranch property here, and I have been chopping wood and carrying water ever since.

The real daddy, of course, was the legendary late film innovator Stan Brakhage with whom I had the privilege of making film trades. I would make a print of so many minutes of my films and would get the equivalent minutes worth of his films. I visited Brakhage at his home in the mountains of Colorado. Brakhage's writings were and are still influential.

Filmography

Bibliography

Brakhage on the Web

Turn on, Tune in, Drop out.........maybe I took this mantra a little too seriously.......

That was Timothy Leary, not Brakhage who said that, Stan was actually an amazingly prolific and ambitious artist who dissapproved of drug use and often criticized the aesthetic and intellectual laziness of hippie mentality. I concur.

Leary

Basically, I had always wished I had grown up in the "country", even wanting to make mom's backyard in suburban Los Angeles into a cornfield. The mums won then, however, so I had to wait until I had my own land to make it so.

C&S