skaloumbakas Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Hi, The following is an extreme design in my favourite analogue domain, which I thought I should share: Please, visit: aca.gr/paper37.htm, which is a paper (included in the http://aca.gr pages), mainly describing most of the technicalities of a huge flywheel design (turning at 375rpm for 33.33RPM) for a huge platter, both magnetically suspended (many pictures included). I am also taking the chance to review my whole analogue set-up, raising and analysing many subjects of an analogue system as a whole. So, I cover the following subjects: 1. The current state of the analogue set-up. ('aas gabriel', Swiss hand made t/t) 2. The description of the t/t elements. 3. The flywheel project. (My extreme DIY intervention...) 4. The finished analogue system set-up & accessories. Listening comments and concluding notes will follow soon, after the break-in period... Regardless of the extremism of the design, let me assure you that many of the included topics will sound familiar and clear up, (I hope), some of your queries you possibly have, regarding a good analogue set-up... I wish you all a very Happy New Year 2004. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Impressive. All that just to spin a piece of plastic. All wow and no flutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I like Erik Mandeville's TT better. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I'm ready for something different. I want to see one where the record stays stationary and the stylus rotates around the record. It couldn't possibly be anymore complicated than some of these other setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I could see this being real good for DJs. You know, all those kids jumping up and down "dancing" (not like the real dancing we used to do, eh, uh...Maron?). Does the 330 lbs. include the statue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 "Impressive. All that just to spin a piece of plastic." DeanG, Even myself couldn't imagine how much information, dynamics, silence - slam - silence - slam - music flow and again dynamics - silence etc. contains this piece of plastic... Enjoy the music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Oh hum another TT. But does it have less romble than my NEUMANN master disc lath mod AM-32b? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 No rumble at all (if the recording does not contain any rumble noise that is...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 I don,t believe you. Ive been cutting records for years. TT do have a noise floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 No Sir, NO rumble at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 ---------------- On 1/5/2004 8:40:45 AM DeanG wrote: I'm ready for something different. I want to see one where the record stays stationary and the stylus rotates around the record. It couldn't possibly be anymore complicated than some of these other setups. ---------------- Here you go Dean! Just what you asked for. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2584724732 Bet it sounds awesome! Here's a better pic of one in action. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2584925534&category=2262 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 How did you obtain the friction free shaft bearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Maron, I really don't know (I suppose you understand that 'no friction' is science fiction, it is just very small friction...) BTW Please, post any questions you might have, only in one forum I suppose answering you twice will not convince you more Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I believe ALL forums need to know about this new design & how it works. Dont you agree? The machining Of all its parts to its ultimate degree is most overwellming. BUT WHY? No mastering done vinyl has gone to this mutch care. Nothing cut on vinyl has ever come close to the master tape. ( master tape both analog or digital) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 I think nobody else has gone in so much detail in a web-report regarding a turntable project and the last 40 hours 750 unique visitors have visited this audio... paper from 20 Forums or so. IMHO, I am doing my High End 'duty' quite well so far... but revealing material details of somedy else's work (Hanspeter Gabriel - Switzerland and TL Acoustics - Hellas) surely is not my duty... BTW, does your comment regarding master tapes apply for direct cut recordings as well? I mention some direct cuts at the end of the paper used for my listening review (will very soon complete the paper), and which represent IMO nothing but the best source available on earth, compared with every possible source you can think of (master tapes included...) Enjoy the music PS: I would gladly receive some of your vinyl cuts for listening evaluation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 It is an interesting design Christos but I find myself wondering why, when you are already using magnetic levitation you dont take the design that bit further. What I mean is, that very magnestism is, in effect, half of an electric motor in and of itself. Creating a battery powered platter would allow you to turn the platter under its own power, so to speak, totally eliminating all external motors. Inherently the only moving part on your TT would be the platter itself. As this is suspended magnetically you could, in effect, remove all bearings as a sort of added bonus. I have to say that this is something I have been thinking of for a while (I think I even posted on here about it sometime ago). If you can accurately control the speed, whilst also controlling the height of the platter you would have, in theory, the most silent and isolated record playing system possibly without vacuum sealing the whole thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Max, My engineering level is not up to the point of: Making a floating 78Kg platter (because this is the effective rotating mass if you read the article carefully) - could you find magnets that strong but still not to interfere with your precious magnetic cartridge? (Compressed air is out of the question of course for such masses) Battery driven (how are you going to do this? If you mean direct drive, thanks but no thanks) and With no use of bearings!!! I wonder, how are you going to put a record on such a massive design with no bearings to hold it vertically. On the other hand...Flywheels are the perfect way to add active rotating mass - active rotational inertia, without adding physical mass of the same magnitude, simply because flywheels can rotate much quicker than the platter. (Remember some elementary Physics?) BTW, I definitely agree puting your motor away from the platter in your t/t set-up. You are learning fast... Enjoy the music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Christos, "Making a floating 78Kg platter (because this is the effective rotating mass if you read the article carefully) - could you find magnets that strong but still not to interfere with your precious magnetic cartridge? (Compressed air is out of the question of course for such masses)" Of course at that mass this would be unworkable. I would be looking to use a far lesser mass more in line with suspended rather than a high mass design TT. Battery driven (how are you going to do this? If you mean direct drive, thanks but no thanks) and Hmm. I wasnt clear about this. What I had in mind was a reasonably small battery connected to, effectively a looped wiring circuit running in one direction with a larger DC power source connected to the plinth running in the other. In effect, with current running in 2 different directions we have a motor with NO MOVING PARTS other than the platter itself. With no use of bearings!!! I wonder, how are you going to put a record on such a massive design with no bearings to hold it vertically." As I said above the idea would only be workable with lower mass. I am not sure of the benefit of higher mass (beyond a certain point) once we have successfully suspended and driven the platter with no physical contact to the plinth at all. the practical problem's are: 1. To keep the platter suspended and turning at the correct speed. 2. To keep the platter centred (i.e. spinning on a fixed axis) without the use of a central spindle (air currents could play havoc with this). Frankly I have no idea if its actually possible but I wouldnt mind a play with it at some time. Thanks for the commments on the motor isolation I have implemented. I have been amazed at what it has done (when you next see Tony just ask him - he spent a week staying in my house and was blown away by it.) Of course that Shelter 901 of his made a huge difference as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaloumbakas Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 1. The benefit of high mass - high inertia is that every correction made by the p.su. to any speed inaccuracies or fluctuations of the platter (if any and, in any case, not more than 0.01PRM...) do not fall within the acoustical spectrum. Mine is 10 Hz maximum, if you work out some elementary calculations, since it takes, as I mention in the paper, 2 minutes to go from 33 to 45RPM. This is why I have received much cleaner notes down to the lowest one of the acoustical spectrum (and I receive many of them as you know...). 2. Another benefit of a high mass (physical mass that is this time...) is that it absorbs vibrations from the record caused by the cartridge reading the grooves (I have made acoustical tests with a stethoscope) and prevents them from going back to the cart and muddle the sound. This is why I have abandoned lately the use of any record mat and place the record straight onto the massive platter (as I explain in the paper). You must remember: BEST WAY TO GET RID OF RESONANCE IS MASS to absorb them and then comes cones or compliant material or anything else you can imagine... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 7, 2004 Share Posted January 7, 2004 Comments in capitals - sorry too lazy to use italics all the time. ---------------- On 1/7/2004 5:06:55 AM skaloumbakas wrote: 1. The benefit of high mass - high inertia is that every correction made by the p.su. to any speed inaccuracies or fluctuations of the platter (if any and, in any case, not more than 0.01PRM...) do not fall within the acoustical spectrum. THE DISADVANTAGE, HOWEVER IS THAT THE TIME TAKEN FOR YOUR SPEED ADJUSTMENT IS LONGER DUE ENTIRELY TO THE ADDITIONAL MASS. FURTHER, THE RISK OF OVER-COMPENSATION WILL BE HIGHER I THINK. I WOULD BE MORE KEEN ON ESTABLISHING THE BEST POSSIBLE POWER SUPPLY (MOST CONSISTENT) THAN MAXIMISING THE MASS OF THE PLATTER AS THIS ADDRESSES THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM RATHER THAN DEALING WITH ITS SYMPTOM. Mine is 10 Hz maximum, if you work out some elementary calculations, since it takes, as I mention in the paper, 2 minutes to go from 33 to 45RPM. This is why I have received much cleaner notes down to the lowest one of the acoustical spectrum (and I receive many of them as you know...). COULD YOU PROVIDE THE CALCULATION FOR THIS - I WOULD BE INTERESTED. 2. Another benefit of a high mass (physical mass that is this time...) is that it absorbs vibrations from the record caused by the cartridge reading the grooves (I have made acoustical tests with a stethoscope) and prevents them from going back to the cart and muddle the sound. This is why I have abandoned lately the use of any record mat and place the record straight onto the massive platter (as I explain in the paper). THIS ONE I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. THE VIBRATIONS CAUSED BY THE CARTRIDGE READING THE GROOVES SHOULD BE THE SAME WHATEVER THE RECORD IS RIDING ON. CALCULATIONS FOR ESTABLISHING THE RESONANT FREQUENCY OF A CARTRIDGE/ARM COMBINATION DO NOT SEEM TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE MASS OF THE PLATTER. WHEN I MATED THE SHELER TO THE MODIFIED PROJECT ARM I USED THE FOLLOWING CALC: Resonant Frequency = 1000/[6.28*square root (M*C) WHERE M IS THE COMBINED MASS OF ARM AND CARTRIDGE AND C IS THE COMPLIANCE OF THE CARTRIDGE. FOR MY SETUP THIS COMES OUT AT JUST OVER 11 HZ - NOT TOO FAR FROM YOUR 10. You must remember: BEST WAY TO GET RID OF RESONANCE IS MASS to absorb them and then comes cones or compliant material or anything else you can imagine... AGAIN I AM CONFUSED - THE RESONANCE WE NEED TO CONTROL IS IN THE ARM, NOT THE PLATTER. THE TRACKING WEIGHT (SAY 2 GRAMMES) TO PLATTER MASS IS ALREADY MINUTE WITH A PLATTER THAT WEIGHS JUST ONE KILO LET ALONE 80. I should say that I am not, in any way critisizing what you have done I am merely trying to understand it in relation to a though I had originally on magnetic levitation and the possibility of driving a platter with no external motor at all and no moving parts other than the platter itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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