maxg Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Having picked up a vinyl copy of Saxaphone Collosus and, frankly, being slightly disappointed I decided to do a spot comparison of all my Sonny's just to see which struck me as being the best - quality-wise. Recordings that I own are: 1. Sonny Rollins and the Contemporary Leaders - Contemporary Records Stereo S7564 - US. 2. Tour De Force - Prestige 7126 re-issue - Mono - German. 3. The Sound of Sonny - riverside - Contemporary series RLP 12-241 - Mono - German. 4. Now's the time - RCA Victor Dynagroove LPM-2927 Original Mono- US. 5. Saxaphone Colossus - Prestige KP/079 - Acoustech re-issue Mono- US. 6. Sonny Rollins - Blue Note - Stereo 14C 062 2609321 - Greek - EMI Re-issue. (marked monoaural and Stereo - actually mono) None of the recordings are bad. The worst of the bunch is the Greek Blue Note that is an average recording with the least impact and a good margin below the standard of the others. This was by far the easiest to spot. Next up I would put the Contemporary Leaders and the Tour De Force on a par. We are already at the status of good recordings and I am not sure that anyone would readily pick holes in either when listened to in isolation. Saxaphone Colossus is definitely slightly better than either of the above - but it is not the sonic perfection I was expecting. Now's the Time - the only original recording is way better - more impact - more range and very little background noise (incredibly little for a record that is a year older than me!!). I listened to this one immediately after the Sax colossus and was fully expecting it to be the best once I heard it. To my amazement it isnt. That honour goes to The Sound of Sonny - the Reiverside re-issue. It is noisier but sonically it is absolutely superb. Knocks the Sax Colossus into a cocked hat. Typically this was about the cheapest of the set. I think I paid something in the order of 10 bucks for it (maybe even less). Also its worth pointing out that this one is not on very heavy vinyl. I am not sure any conclusions can be drawn from this small sample. Suffice to say the result was a surprise to me and yet again I find myself pondering the benefits of heavy vinyl and audiophile pressings. As ever YMMV and I would not be at all surprised to find that the next Sonny I pick up will make my tag line appropriate again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boomac Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 maxg, Try Way Out Westsometime. It's a great recording and well worth a listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 OK, granted.. I know you are discussing the quality issue of the recordings. yet, is this still not missing the point a bit? I personally was never talking about Sonny Rollins as an audiophile recording. Quite the opposite, he is simply one of the best saxophone players in history with some of the great sessions ever, surrounded by amazing sidemen (men that could lead their own combos). I dont see one reference to the music here which is what is paramount and ultimately of the most importance. I personally dont think I have been recommending any of the jazz just on sonics alone perhaps only as consideration...except to pick out the better sounding versions or as a secondary facet. This is recommended on CONTENT and artistry. While I have noted better sounding versions ie the K2 20 Bit series if having to go digital, if one is looking at this to hear the recording and not the music, it is missing the point. Max, I was really surprised by this post. Yes, a Holly Cole or Patricia Barber might come in a tad higher on the "sounds good on the system" scale but the quality of music, in my opinion, would not even make the same page...or even book in most cases. While I understand the comments on recording, not to even mention the performance or content was what struck me. Ok The Classic Series and other audiophile pressings are attempting to bring the best out of the original but even still, this is secondary to the content. I was just listening to Sonny Meets Hawk yesterday afternoon and marveling at the lines. I wasnt listening to the amps, imaging, transparency, soundstaging etc.... but the musis was GREAT. Ultimately, the system should convey the emotion and the essence. IF it fails this test, then it really needs some work, or perhaps a tweaking of what is really important, the perception... I think the system comes in second to the music. kh PS- As a side note, I agree that many of the so-called 180g releases by the big lables have been a disappointment, especially the Impulse reissues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Chill Kelly, the content was never at issue. This was a post about the recordings, not the content. Sonny has a lot of good music in him. Nothing that I have of his past about 1965 shows that, but may just be the influence of the times. Max, I have never seen a correlation between heavy vinyl and quality recordings. Generally speaking, the Blue Note stuff is both heavy and well-recorded, while other things are hit or miss. I have some very good recordings that are flimsy, and bend under their own weight. Every pre-1960 Sonny Rollins album I've seen in the vinyl stores goes for $40+, which I simply won't spend. I can get good Louis Armstrong for a third that. I don't care for his Dixieland stuff but his straighter bebop jazz is good stuff. My fav recording is still Cannonball Adderly, "Somethin' Else" on Blue Note which is all scratched to h*ll but golly it still gets a lot of platter time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Chill? I think I made a valid point actually in that many people are getting music for the recording quality. I didnt even see any lip service paid to the actual content. To me, it sill sounds like it was being judged on quality of recording alone. You'll have to ask Max if he plans on getting more Rollins. I have a feeling he was looking for it FOR the recording quality. I am sure he will reply here. I didnt mean to be so pointed. I guess I have become disinchanted with this side of the audio game where the sonics are the end run as the content takes a back seat. It is the one thing I really equate with the negative connotations of the word "audiophile." I like ole Max and share mail with him. I was just bringing up the point that I think most jazz goes beyond the recording. Then again, I happen to like the sonics of most of Sonny's recordings too. Granted, many do have faults, but most convey what is important. I have quite a few jazz recordings in vinyl, actually far more than a few. I wouldnt label them audiophile recordings however. BUt I would sure include a large portion as musically significant and far less processed sounding that 99% of the post 70s mainstream. kh ps- this is a bit unfair to ole maxie - I do think he appreciates the musical content; I justwanted to stress the importance of mentioning this in a post about quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 "Now's the Time" is a gimmick record that I listen to about once a decade. All of Rollins' Blue Note recordings are FABULOUS records in terms of sonics--the Greek pressing must be a real POS. Saxophone Collosus is a FABULOUS sounding record--you must have one lousy pressing! Chris King and I listened to both my original deep-groove NYC pressing and his BRAND NEW 45rmp Audiophile pressing a couple of weeks ago and BOTH sounded great. I thought the 45rpm was mixed a bit on the hot side, but it was AWESOME--dead quiet and ALIVE! Louis Armstrong was no longer playing "Dixieland" (trad. NO jazz) by about 1923!!!!!! And BEBOP?!?!? Louis Armstrong NEVER played bebop EVER!!! I must have FIFTY Louis Armstrong records that span his entire career and BEBOP?? NO WAY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 I agree with Allan on the Saxophone Collosus on vinyl... even on the OJC reissue, this is a very loose, live, relaxed, and natural recording while not sounding artificial in the way that some audiophile offerings can seem. I dont own a single Sonny recording that takes away from the performance. Even the Night at Village Vanguard sessions, which dont have the best sonics, REALLY convey the emotion and life from the event. It's another GREAT Rollins to get! kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Kelly, As others have said here I wasnt looking at the music per say - just the quality of the recording. This is not something I usually fuss over either, its just that I was expecting the vinyl version of Sax Col to be head and shoulders better than the X2 20 bit XRCD and it isnt. This was a surprise and led me to an analysis of the quality of the other Sonny recordings. My findings on that were also a surprise and that is why I posted them here. I didnt write about the quality of the music simply because that is taken as red. I have been a Sonny fan for a while now - he is one of the very few Jazz performers I listen to with any regularity. I'm also not sure I agree with Alan (? I think it was Alan) about Now's the time - I really like that album. I do agree with others that Sax~ Col~ is probably one of his best works but I find all of the ones I have eminently listenable to. Yet again, however, I have demonstrated to myself that price (and vinyl weight) is no guide to sonics. Amazes me they get away with charging 3 to 4 times the price on a new issue that just doesnt better the standard ones sonically. And yes - my Saxaphone Colossus may be a dud - I dont know. what are others experience in comparing the vinyl to the XRCD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Fair enough. Go see my comparisons of the K2 20Bit (which is very close if not more natural and better than the XRCD) with the vinyl. It's in your birthday thread I believe. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBryan Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 SC is my favorite Sonny Rollins album and I often use it as a reference when listening to a new piece of gear or someone elses system. The LP is a stunner and I would rate the XRCD a few steps behind in regard to clarity and detail but still way ahead of the standard offerings. I listen to the RTI (Acoustic Sounds) LP quite often and still can't comprehend how the engineers produced a soundstage from a mono recording (I'm beginning to think it must be in my head). Nevertheless, the LP is very detailed, quiet and "alive" one of the blackest backgrounds I've heard. When someone asks about jazz recordings and mono in particular, SC is one of my first recommendations. Have fun -Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 geez Alan, bust my chops about Louis, will you? If bebop is the wrong term, what is it? Swing? Trance? Techno? There are so many flavors of jazz that a newbie finds it hard to classify same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 "Swing" works for me! Sorry, I did NOT mean to bust your chops. Fats Navarro, Howard McGhee, Dizzy Gillespie, EARLY Miles Davis, EARLY Kenny Dorham, Red Rodney-- now THATS bebop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Hey Allan, while you're here, looks like this Black Widow arm is working reasonably well. Thank you very much for the offer on your SME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 Allan, by any chance do you have a TD125 armboard for that SME? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted January 15, 2004 Author Share Posted January 15, 2004 Kelly, Comparison of K2 20 bit with XRCD??? - arent they the same thing? I am looking at the fly leaf of my XRCD and it is all about K2 20 bit mastering. Did you mean XRCD with Vinyl by any chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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