forte Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 I just purchased my first tube setup which is an Antique Sound Labs MG-SI15 Integrated amp. I have some observations and I wanted to know if they are consistent with what is to be expected from tube gear, so I would appreciate any comments and/or suggestions. I really didnt know what to expect when I set it up. I normally listen to a solid state power setup (B&K PT-5 preamp / B&K Reference 200.2 amp). The first thing that jumped out right away was the mids. The mids are much more aggressive than what I am used to. I have spent my whole audio life concentrating on highs and lows and have really never paid attention to mids, but with this new tube amp it is hard to ignore. Vocals have taken on a whole new dimension and now I seem to be spending more time listening to Harry Connick, Mel Torme, Norah Jones, etc But while the mids sound exceptionally clear, they seem almost too strong and that is the only problem that I really have with this setup. For example when Norah Jones sings Dont Know Why, at some points her voice is so powerful that I have to turn down the volume because I feel like my eardrums are going to rupture. (and I dont listen at a loud volume to begin with) But its not just the vocals. Other notes in the mid range played on the piano, guitar, etc, also sound almost too powerful. The bass was weak and sort of mushy, but I swapped out the KT-88 Groove tubes with GE 6550A and now the bass is awesome. It is deep and tight, but not so tight that it sounds electronic. In fact everything about the sound I am hearing sounds much more natural somehow, but I just dont know how to describe it other than that. The soundstage is also much, much better than what I am used to. My source is a SONY 222ES SACD player and while I was not overly impressed with my SACDs before, they seem to sound so natural when played through the tubes. I have also replaced the 12AX7s with Telefunkens, and while the naturalness of the sound even improved more (if that were possible), the strong mids still persist.. I am playing through Klipsh Forte speakers, and I know that the horns are aggressive in the mids, but I have used these speakers with many other SS amps, without noticing the mids being this strong. Should I expect these very strong mids from tubes? Or is this a characteristic of the specific amp that I have? Any ideas comments or suggestions? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 funny you mention that Norah Jones disc. I have a Rega Planet into an EICO HF-81 feeding a pair of KHorns, recently acquired that disc. First thing I noticed was how the mix overdid her voice something awful on some of the tracks. It just blasts over the instruments. I was sort of taken aback since this was multi-award winning disc. I wonder if they changed the mix during the production runs somewhere? It's just blatantly obvious on several tracks. I was surprised that some of the tunes had sort of a country flavor, and I was particularly impressed with "Cold, Cold Heart" this is just a killer track for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Yea, maybe the Norah Jones CD was a bad example because the vocals seem overpowering on just about any of my good systems. I like the composition, but rarely listen to the CD because of that. The new tube amp really makes it worse I guess. There is an SACD version of the CD - I wonder if it is mixed differently? I have been listening to the CD more though because this new amp makes her voice sound fantastic. I just have to keep the volume low. The other night I was listening to Wish You Were Here and I was noticing the same aggressiveness with the mids. The funny thing is that even though the mids are more prominent, they sound really great. It is just that they seem to be amplified more than the rest of the mix on many of my recordings and I have and I never noticed this before with my other gear. I have two theories: (1)The improved clarity (fullness) of the mids be uncovering a weakness in my room acoustics (2)The circuitry of the amp be amplifying the mids disproportionatly to the rest of the sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 forte, Your observations are pretty much the inverse of what I would expect. Are you listening with tone controls flat (or no tone controls at all)? If not, you might begin by making all comparisons with note flat. Usually, ss distortion adds upper midrange non-harmonic frequencies which overwhelm bass and the very top end, making the sound thin. To compensate people use tone controls. I am not familiar with either of your amplifiers, but only commenting on the types that they are. Also, dynamics of the Fortes can sneak up on you and the sound, especially if it isn't distorted, may be louder than you think .. leading to the tendency to turn it down after a few minutes. Try listening with tone flat, at more moderate levels to begin with. In the end, you ss amp could be better than the ASL, but I think it's not that simple. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Thanks Leo. My tube amp does not have a tone control. And I always listen to my SS stuff flat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 forte, I looked up your amp. Are you using the Triode or Pentode mode? In Triode mode I would expect a smoother sound, but I wouldn't expect more than moderate volume with the Forte speaker. I have no idea what Pentode mode would sound like for several reasons. I do use KT66 tubes in a no feedback, triode, class A (like dual SET using a pp transformer), and find the sound similar to SET. So I would figure the KT88 works reasonable as a SET output tube. How does it sound if the volume is adjusted so you can converse with someone a few feet away, without raising your voice? I would figure the ASL, in triode mode, is good for listening at very moderate levels. If you want more, you have to switch to something bigger .. maybe the pentode mode or maybe your ss amp. I use 3 to 3.5 Watt SET for moderate listening on speakers that are twice as loud as your Fortes. I switch to the P6D which will put out 8 Watt peaks, for things that I consider loud. For many people, what I consider loud is quite moderate. Amplitude may be a factor here. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garymd Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 When I first hooked up my scott, after years of high powered SS, I had the opposite effect. It almost sounded as if I had cotton in my ears. It was a very smooth midrange but not overpowering. I'm thinking it's your amp. Give it some time. Your ears need a couple weeks of adjusting while the amp needs break-in time if it's new. I also have had the same experiences with Norah Jones. Her voice just overwhelms the rest of the instruments but is great for testing your imaging and soundstage. She seems to "loom" over you while singing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 ---------------- On 2/7/2004 11:55:51 AM forte wrote: There is an SACD version of the CD - I wonder if it is mixed differently? ---------------- The Norah Jones CD and SACD have the same mix. Of course there is an extra multi channel mix on the SACD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forte Posted February 7, 2004 Author Share Posted February 7, 2004 Leo, I was using it in Pentode mode because for some reason, I thought the overall sound was better. When I switch to triode mode and rebias, I think the mids are tamed somewhat, but I really don't understand that. In pentode mode with the volume set so that I can conversate with someone a few feet away, it sounds FANTASTIC. I normally listen to music at this, or slightly higher level. Thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobLikesTubes Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Give the amps and tubes some time to burn in. My experience with tube gear is they both take a little time to "mellow out" Once they do, you'll be grinning ear to ear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Agreed, especially with new tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Any new or modded amp should get 100 hours on it before you really start to listen close. You can make yourself nuts chasing the "burn in" progresion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLKlipscher Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Buy a POS Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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