DwK Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 First, what is clipping. Why does it happen? How can you tell if your Amp is clipping? What does it affect? your speakers? or the amp? I REALY dont understand this subject. Someone Please explain ------------------ Living Room: Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier 2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch 2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch My Room: Klipsch Pro Medias 2 Fisher Surrounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 Clipping is what results when an amplifier runs out of power and its waves are "clipped off" as they try to reach beyond the rated output of the amp - distortion results. As an illustration, if you picture the eletrical energy that comes out of the amp and goes to your speakers as waves kind of like an ocean, you can get a pretty good picture of what happens when clipping occurs. The waves of electical energy that come out of the amp increase in amplitude, or "get bigger" as the volume is increased, kind of like bigger and bigger waves on the ocean. Each amp has a power rating which tells just how big these waves can get before their tops start getting "clipped off." Picture ocean waves with a ceiling suspended at some given height. The ceiling represents the amp power at clipping. If the waves get too big, they will run out of room and the smooth wave top will be lost when they hit the ceiling. An amp does the same thing, only with electical waves. The amp wants to make big, smooth waves, but when overdriven, they run into the ceiling, and clip - the smooth wave tops are not produced = distortion. Clipping an amplifier produces all kinds of distortion WAAAY beyond the rated distortion of the amplifier. The amp sends these distorted signals to the speakers which can cook any one of the drivers, but it's usually the tweeter, with its delicate voice coil, which suffers burnout. It does doesn't take a big amp either. A lower powered amp, when clipping hard, can easily cook a tweeter. Clipping can be heard as obvious distortion when clipping big-time (sounds raspy and "tizzy"). Lesser clipping sounds more like there is no dynamic range in the music - its all loud (there is much less difference between the loud and soft passages than is intrinsic to the recording). Call it a "dynamic compression" sound. FYI: crappy speakers can also undergo dynamic compression as the voice coils heat up and max excursions are reach - even when the amp is not clipping (sorry to confuse matters a bit). The amp is usually not damaged during mild to moderate clipping, but can be if a cooked voice coil causes a shorted load to act on the amp. Also, if an amp is run into the red zone for too long, the amp can overheat, which may damage it. Moral: have plenty of power, keep it clean, and use efficient speakers - especially if you like it loud. Anybody else feel free to chip in. Klipschguy This message has been edited by Klipschguy on 06-22-2001 at 07:04 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwK Posted June 22, 2001 Author Share Posted June 22, 2001 Ok, I understand, atleast.. alot more than before. I guess its my CD's (burnt) or the DVD player (150$ aiwa). Because when I have music on, I heard.. short... .. I wanna say clips... Short *snaping* noises. And I usualy have the system turned up. But never past the half way mark, so I REALY doubt that the Yamaha Natural sound A500 has reached its power limit. And I'm possitive its not giving the Heresys more than 100 watts. 1 more question. On the Yamaha, it has numbers around the volume dial. It starts at like double 0's. 00 Next is 60, then 50 then 40, then 34 then 30 to 24 ro 24.. (not sure past the 30).. ect ect. What the hack is that about??? Do the numbers tell how many watts its putting out? ------------------ Living Room: Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier 2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch 2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch My Room: Klipsch Pro Medias 2 Fisher Surrounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 22, 2001 Share Posted June 22, 2001 I got a snapping sound when playing Telarc recording with deep bass effects. It was using an old Sony amp of low power. It broke a fine high power EV woofer which should have been good for many times the rated power of the amp. My best guess is that it is gross clipping of subsonics, or the subsonics themselves did something bad to some portion of the amp circuit. To me, it sounded like an amp problem, as if DC had suddenly been switched across the speaker. But I am often wrong. Usually clipping shows up as gross distortion of everything especially the midrange and we hear the fuzz and gross distortion from the amp. As described by others. Sort of like a rock concert when everything it turned up to the max. I suspect there is something else goes on when very low bass is mixed in the recording out of proportion to the rest. It can be 20 dB higher. We don't hear the characteristic fuzz of distortion of the midrange. Yet the amp is very unhappy. Another explanation is that a large bass signal is driving the bass diaphragm until it bumps up against the magnet structure. The amp is not overloaded, but the speaker is. There can be something like a "clank". The numbers you mention are pretty much relative to the amount of amplification the amp is providing overall. However, if the source has big bass notes or sound effects, the amp could still be driven to the max. The same for the Heresy. Give us some more information. Pops and clicks are sometimes the results of electrical equipment switching on and off. E.g. the refrigerator or air conditioner compressor. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwK Posted June 23, 2001 Author Share Posted June 23, 2001 Random clicks when playing CD's. They are burnt CD's and I dont have them in cases that could be it. I usualy keep the Bass settings at +5 though. How much more does that increase the.. what ever? PLEASE explain .... lost and confusement. I'm in a real jumbled state of mind. Proboblems with the Girl Friend But, How do the numbers work though. How do you know usualy, how much it is amplifying by looking at those numbers?? You gotta remember, my Grandfather got all this about 30 years ago, Right before college. They use to crank it all the time... And he says that it should be fine, and that he's done it before. But I still.. worry. After breaking my dads Stereo Reciever.. I ... am REAL paranoid.... ------------------ Living Room: Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier 2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch 2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch My Room: Klipsch Pro Medias 2 Fisher Surrounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klipschguy Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 Your problem may be the woofers bottoming out where the woofer's voice coil is smacking against the back of the rear magnet plate. Woofer bottoming is usually caused by trying to squeeze too much bass out of a woofer, especially a small one. Bass is created by moving air. More bass = more air that needs to be moved. Trying to get bone jarring bass out of a small woofer is like fanning yourself with guitar pick. To figure out if it's your woofers bottoming, roll the bass back when listening to a recording which is giving the "snapping sound." If the noise stops, it's likely woofer bottoming - get a sub, or turn down the bass. If the noise is intrinsic to the recording, you should hear the snapping at most output levels, and probably through headphones. I always grab a pair of headphones to figure out if its the recording or one of the drivers. Hope this helps. Klipschguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 DWK Are the random clicks just with the burnt cd's? I have a burnt cd (only one) that does the same thing you are referring to if i am understanding you correctly. Doesnt matter at what volume i listen to it the pops and clicks are very noticeable. My thought was that there was something on the original cd that was burnt are maybe a burning gone array. So if it is just on burnt cd's and not on originals i would guess just a burning problem. just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 DWK- Sorry about the girlfriend. I had a similar 'bout with one in 1988. Really sucked at the time. I kept telling myself "The pain will never go away...you just don't cry about it as much later on".-blasism As a result of that former girl of mine, I took up collecting disco music as a hobby from the 70's (45's, cd, LP, whatever) and would play it in my car (fitting...a 1975 Mercury Montego MX 2-door with a 460cid) rather loud. I had a lot of fun in the 70's and this was a very long time before it came back in vogue and was easy to get hold of. I had the kind of friends that listened to that kind of music back then but it wasn't cool to be SEEN listening to it. Out on the Blvd. while playing this stuff, I would come up to a stoplight playing "Shame" from Evelyn "Champaigne" King at some un-Godly SPL. I either got one of two faces from other drivers: "What is THAT crap!" or "Hey! I remember that!!". It wasn't that kind of recognition I was looking for though, but it helped a little. Over all, the new hobby helped me through a lot of pain. It was also nice to use the car stereo music at the local school yards while practicing for the next skateboarding tournament. The "old" girl friend is now (at 31 years old) working at a McDonalds with an illagitimate child, gained about 60 lbs. and has a reputation for sleeping around with cops that are on duty. While I'm working in the legal field climbing my way to making $160 an hour, and currently have a girlfriend that teaches students with multiple handicaps at a local high-school. To this day marraige is something I distain. I'm not trying to put that philosiphy on everyone else, that is what I just found is right for me. Thankfully, my girlfriend understands. Life definitely got better-- ------------------ Tom KLF-20 Mahogany McIntosh C33 (In the Hospital--being discharged on June 29th) Rotel RB-1080 Yamaha PF-800 Turntable/ Sure V15 Type V Cartridge Ortofon VMS-30 mkII Cartridge Stanton 999SS Cartridge Carver TL-3100 CD Yamaha K-1020 Cassette dbx 1231 EQ H.H. Scott 830z Analyzer Monster Interlink 400mk II Monster Interlink 300 mk II Studio Tech U-48RW Cabinet Original 12ga. Monster Cable Enough boxes for a fire hazard! This message has been edited by tblasing on 06-24-2001 at 10:16 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted June 23, 2001 Share Posted June 23, 2001 I haven't had the problem with duplicated CDs. They skip or will not play. But you would probably know that. If you're turning up the bass knob, that might well be the problem. The numbers on the bass boost knob probably do not equate to any particular amount of gain. I know of no industry "standard." E.g. setting the knob to 5 does not equate to 5 dB boost. It could well be 7, or 8, or 10 dB. Let's assume it is 10 dB in fact. That means the bass is boosted to 10 times the power. If 3 dB it would be twice the power. If 20 dB it would be 100 times the power. All relative to the midrange level. (The math is complicated. I'll explain if requested.) 20 dB would be quite a bit of boost in the design. However, it would mean that while the midrange is creating one watt, the bass is getting 100 watts. That is "lots of watts." So, you might try to back that down. It may well be causing amp or speaker problems. BTW, are you sure the speakers are working properly? This amount of boost should sound pretty unbalanced, even if you're into disco =8^o. Is there any chance your cranking up the amp to make up for a partial speaker failure? - - - - Above we've spoken about "clipping" in the amp. The amp is complicated and each individual system has a limit. So, any one might be the first to reach its limit. Things can get worse if two are pushed to the limit at the same time. In a very general sense the amp is made up of (1) the power supply and (2) a "valve." The "handle" on the valve is the input signal. The input controls the amount of power from the power supply which is sent to the output, specifically, the speaker, through the valve. So, you see the amplifier doesn't really directly amplify the input in terms of make it louder or bigger. Rather, it is a scheme to allow the input to connect the power supply to the speaker by means of the valve. Now we must step back and think about the two components. The power supply doesn't really supply power. Rather it converts the 60 Hz alternating current (A.C.) from the wall socket to direct current (D.C.). The latter is what we get from a battery. Let's say it is 20 volts, constant, at a given current. However, when too much current is drawn from the power supply, its output is not constant, smooth D.C. This is because it uses capacitors to store up energy which can be too rapidly depleated. Keep this in mind, we'll go back to it, below at (*). The "valve" section is a semiconductor transistor or a vacuum tube. By analogy to a water valve, at some point it is wide open. So, even if you apply more twisting force to open it more, it is not going to open more. There is not going to be more flow of water even if there is more water pressure available. Here, clipping is caused because the semiconductor is saturated. This is the max output limited by the valve. It might cut off at 16 volts, even though 20 volts are available from the power supply. On the other hand, maybe the valve is a big one, but we have run out of voltage from the power supply. By analogy, the water pressure runs out even before the valve is fully open. Now we've run out of power because of limitation in the power supply, rather than a small valve. The valve could pass the 25 volts and required current, but because of power supply limits, we've run out of steam. The overall effect is usually the same in each case above. The music signal goes up to a high value or mountain top. However, the amp just runs out of steam and can't reproduce it at the output. Rather it maxes out and creates a plateau. So the mountain top is "clipped". Where does the term "clipping" come from. In truth, in labs the output of the amplifier is examined on an oscillicope. A type of visual display. The output is viewed. To the extent it looks like a mountain or a wave, it is clipped or plateaued. - - - - This is the end of discussion about hardware. Now we go into the difficult subject of how clipping of low frequencies can cause "high frequencies" which blow out a tweeter. - - - - - So, you say, what is so wrong with clipping? Can't we live with it. Doesn't sound so bad in theory. What is all this talk about clipping creating other frequencies? You have to draw this diagram in your head. What happens when you're climbing up even a mild slope (of bass) and hit a sudden plateau with a knife sharp edge? Ha. That is a rapid change. Suppose it goes from a slope of 1 in 1 (45 degrees) to a slope of zero in a very short interval when when we reach the plateau. Is that "rapid change" (at clipping) the same as creating a high frequency signal? The first impression is to say, NOPE, no way, no how. We know that a high frequency signal is a sine wave with a short period. We can squeeze 6,000 of these sine waves into a second. Or or signal of 6,000 Hertz. This doesn't SEEM akin to clipping at the knife edge. However, please consider what is the slope of the 6,000 Hz sine wave. It is changing rapidly. So, to a great extent, the sharp edge of the plateau "clipping" the bass signal is the same as the rapidly changing slope of the 6,000 Hz of the sine wave. The above can be explained by some very complicated math. It is sometimes expressed, correctly, that when a bass note is clipped (by the amp), the sharp edge creates a signal in the high frequency range which can blow out a tweeter. This is all somewhat counter intuitive. Lets do it again. Figuring backward. High frequency continuous waves change their level very quickly. So their slope changes quickly. By definition. When a bass signal changes slowly in an uphill at say say a 1 to 1 ratio, but reaches a plateau, its slope changes quickly, from 1 to 1 to zero. Therefore, this clipped bass signal changes in slope even more quickly than any high frequecy signal. Essentially, the clipped bass signal has all of a sudden become the source of a signal which is akin to a high frequency, or even a mid frequency. This is the source of the mud we hear at over load. Suffice to say that clipped bass can create so much of this signal that it can burn out midranges and tweeters. - - - - * I've been reading at the Nelson Pass website. He has an oblique comment about power supply overload. My best understanding is that when power supplies are pushed to their limits, filtering breaks down. There is no longer DC supplied, but rather AC ripple. This could play Hobb with the rest of the amp. It could be the source of low frequency, rather than high, distortion. - -- - - Also above, I've not discussed the role of feedback circuits in the amp. Or what can go bad in an overload. Suffice to say that when the amp is pushed the absolute limit, it is tough to tell what has broken down first. Happily, the engineers have built in enough safe guards so that there is no permanent damage from overloads. The overall answer is that you've got the bass cranked too high. Be kind to your amp, and speakers. - - - - - Regarding the girl friend. I'm not good at lost love. How the heck do I get into this role? Car Talk Guys do it. The Doctor is "IN". There is an odd phenomenon in love. There are two people involved. The one who is commited and loving is the one who is most hurt when the plug is pulled. Yet this hurt makes one think they are the one at fault. You've not told much about the problem. Gee, do we want to know? Going back to real basic and essential stuff. If you can sit down with the woman and talk about sex, jobs, money, children; then you can work something out. Not all at once, naturally, and not in the same place or time. If she, or you, balks on wading into it, then there is a problem of goals and communication. Be noble, be fair. Prepare to have your heart broken. Tough it out. It's a guy thing. If the significant other is not into this discussion, it is a bad sign. Give some consideration to deep psychological issues of mother and fathers, early family life. I can well understand if you feel compelled to make this "one" relationship work. That is a very good thing which keeps husbands and wives together through tough times. Hence your instincts are the best. Unfortunately, we can't turn them on or off as convenient. Sometimes these are all aimed at the wrong person. On the other hand, there may well be another woman out there for you. Yeah, hard to see right now. After "she" dumped me, I still haven't found the right one, but there have been some close calls. The investigation has been enlighening. Carry on. Disco is not the answer. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwK Posted June 23, 2001 Author Share Posted June 23, 2001 Thanks G. for that information.. I feel smarter I'll probobly end up having to read over it a few mor times to, know I understand it, but I think I got it. Thanks guys for the Help.. I got another question on the way but for another topic. As for the Love life thing. I almost ended it.. earlier this week, she was thinking about it, and i was hurt by a few things.... and hadnt completely gotten over it. She is realy attached to me.. she is the type of girl, where.. every month so far has been REALY important (Today was our 6 month aniversery) And the litting things and such are real important to her.. which is Totaly alright. But after everything... I wasnt sure if I could realy carry on like before. We could easily talk about, sex, jobs, school, kids, the future, ect.. but... i'm just easy about talking about things I guess. One thing you must know about me.... is that.. i'm the closest thing to a woman, being a guy, without being totaly gay.... understand? I got the emotional thing going on, very understanding and carrying. I am a very Empathetic person (even though I cant spell it). But I'm also very tough... I can punch brick walls multiple times.. and be ok, and enjoy it.. Have a Green Belt in a FreeStyle Mixed Martial Arts, (5'7" 150 punds... going aginst, adults.. about.. close enough to twice my size with theyer muscle content.... and sometimes winning I basicaly wanted to end it for her. I didnt think I could live it out with her.. and she needed someone, and I knew it would just end some day any wayz..... so better now. well.. we talked about it more... she called last at night when she got off line... We decided to try alittle longer.. and see what happend. If I still felt this way, we would break if off... Just, if we ended it then, she would have felt it was all her fault. Today we went to the Lake/park, ate.... and..... nm... Then we went back to her house.. wam and..... nm... Then went to eat soem Pasta... Then came back to my house for about an hour and a half.. and....... nm. Then we took her home. (Icant drive.. yet.... we rely on parents) Dont get me wrong, she's a great girl. I care for her alot. Hope .... htat helps. And............ I dont think Disco's going to do it for me Klipsch might................ Klipsch is always a good way out......... Kill someone....... "Klipsch made me.." Break up with Girl friend....... "I'm better with you Klipsch *rubbing cones*" Stuck in prison..... Get some K-Horns, blast them at full... with large ear pads on... thus killing everyone in the building... and escaping. maby i'm evil.. but I dont think so....... ------------------ Living Room: Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier 2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch 2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch My Room: Klipsch Pro Medias 2 Fisher Surrounds This message has been edited by DwK on 06-24-2001 at 12:19 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Carry on. Disco is not the answer. All I was suggesting was that finding a hobby to occupy the most difficult time was the vehicle I used on the way to recovery. I didn't mean to say that THIS was the only way to heal. Besides, this was long before my days of my current hobby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwK Posted June 24, 2001 Author Share Posted June 24, 2001 I know what you ment just giving you a hard time. I gotza hobby... here I am. Thakns for the Advice. ******* I think I am ging to start, keeping the Bass turned down, I dont wanna hurt hose Beutiful pieces of... art. Those Magnificant Heresys.. lol.. i'm crazy. As for the clicking, I am going to find where it does it, and replay that part, with low, high volumes, Bass up, bass down, bass normal And with headphones. ------------------ Living Room: Yamaha Natural Sound A-500 Stereo Amplifier 2 Klipsch Heresys on A switch 2 Fisher STV-873 on B switch My Room: Klipsch Pro Medias 2 Fisher Surrounds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Favog Posted June 24, 2001 Share Posted June 24, 2001 Well taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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