ZAKO Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 If your floors move that mutch it would effect the high frequencies & this would blurr & effect the sound & I suspect this would be the DIFFERENCE heard. The measurments WE did was on a concreate floor. In mono... using a master tape of Saint Saens Symphony no.3 "organ" . Not a guitar & harp. Ashworth & Klipsch where not sloutch,s when listening to low registers THey foiled back & forth & both learned alot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 The floor in this house was the time-honored suspended-wood design. If I remember correctly, there was a perimeter concrete footing, with concrete blocks atop that. Then there were holes in the ground which were poured up with concrete to mate the footing height. Atop the holes were SOLID concrete blocks, railroad tie sleepers lap jointed and pinned at block locations, then floor joists running across from the outer concrete blocks, across the sleepers (under interior supporting walls) where they were secured then to the other outer concrete blocks. The joists were cross-braced. Atop the joists there were two layers of criss/cross-diagonally laid 1x6 yellow pine tongue and groove subflooring. Atop that was 3/4" plywood...screwed downto the subflooring. Between each layer of flooring was heavy roofing felt to eliminate possibilities of squeaks later on. Clips had been installed to edges of plywood flooring as it was laid to secure edges to each other. The floor had then been carpeted. The house was maybe 15 years old at the time (mid-to-late70's)and solid as a rock. It had been his parents' home. I had helped him run new water line in his kitchen for the ice-maker in his new fridge, so while I was under the house, I had a good look at its normally hidden construction. This kind of floor construction was considered "the best there is" in those days in this part of the country. Nowadays, the labor and material cost keep it from being a viable alternative to concrete slab construction. It was Mr. Paul who heard the difference in the BOTTOM-END, NOT just the sales rep and I. Remember, the SUBJECT here IS SEALING THE BASSS BIN! NEVERMIND! (I just hate it when I get the feeling I am "whizzing in the wind!") If you have some better advice on SEALING the bass bins to the room, then let's hear it...I am always open to better suggestions. As for my suggestions, I have heard the differences myself, or else I wouldn't give out the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 I sealed the top of my Khorns' bass bins using pipe insulating foam this morning. My house is about 95 years old with tall bass boards so I hadn't be able to get a tight seal up until now except for the tail board. Andy you were right on the money. The bass is deeper and tighter than ever before ! Next tweak will be the rubber grippers once I find some. Khorns can be prime PITA to set up right but once they are ..................WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 LynnM, Grippers can be found at Walmart...back in the hardware section...where they have those things for furniture feet and such. Get the black neoprene ones for the K-horns, preferably at least 1" or 1-1/2" diameter. You may find that it will work best by stacking them two thick when you install the bass bins...but if your floor is really flat, one thickness should suffice. Cheap fix! When you get them figure on about a minimum of twelve or so per bass bin on K-horns...better to have too many than not enough. They come in like 8 to a package for 1-1/2" ones. Pack is around a couple bucks each. Remember, though, that if you have the bass bins on carpeted floor the grippers can't really do much good...they are for use on smooth-surfaced floors (wood, tile, bare concrete, and such) Be sure to pry out the gliders on the bottoms of your bass bins before installing the Grippers...with the gliders left on, it nullifies the effect of the Grippers somewhat. Let us know how it works out for you...and if you have any questions about placement of the Grippers on the bass bin bottoms, just holler at me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted February 21, 2004 Share Posted February 21, 2004 My Khorns are in a room with a concrete knee wall and baseboard heat. This the means I found best to seal them. In place of the styrofaom, which I had to replace too frequently I now use a piece of ethrafoam. When you gat a chance, do that rope caulk mod and place a bridge cap across the 2mFs in the AA networks. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 3dZapper My floors are tongue and groove fir from about 1909. I looked at your pic of your rope caulk mod and it looks exactly the same as my 400's wrapped in Polybutyl Rubber which I picked up at an RV dealer for C$6.00 per 25' roll.I used about 30' per speaker. I noticed an improvement in the mid-range which I found a little difficult to describe. Mein Frau took one listen and said the speakers sound smoother than before. What I used may or may not be the same product you used but I have run across what appears to be the same product at a hardware being sold as plumber's sealant tape for $4.29 for a 12" strip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynnm Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Another suprise! I expected that sealing the horns tighter would improve the bass. What I also got and did not expect is that the midrange is smoother now. The mids were so nice before that I thought no improvement was possible but there is a noticeable improvement in that area too. Bonus !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 The mids is where you will find the most improvement when the Klipschorn is sealed in the corner. Sealing it improves 250Hz to 400Hz. When you gain here the lows also sound better. Something to do with second order harmonics. It's about time that someone heard this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 I purchased my Klipschorns new in 1992. I discovered this forum in 2001. I believe that the bass from my khorns is improved thanks to the ideas from this forum. Here are the steps that each contributed to "tight quick bass". First improvement was pipe insulation on the tailboard. Next someone mentioned that "california" plasterboard did not stop low frequencies. I purchased 41" squares of 3/4" mdf to re-inforce the plasterboard. I just slipped the squares between the khorn and the walls. Noticable improvement. Since the khorn was sitting on carpet with pads, I next purchased a right triangle with 41" sides of 1" mdf. Again an improvement. Now that the khorn was sitting on a hard surface, I removed the sliders. I know that I should not have doubted HDBR, but I was amazed that it made a difference. Every 2 or 3 months I reverse the tweeks just to make sure the difference is still present. I am now ready to fix the mdf to the walls and paint. My term for this tweek is "semi-false corners". I have attached three photos on seperate posts. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 photo 2 of 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 photo 3 of 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Most say the ALK network improves the mids and highs. No one says that the network improves the bass. If you do an A/B comparison you will also hear improved bass reporduction. It looks like Gary is doing everything right to improve the sound of his K-Horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDBRbuilder Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Gary, I am glad that a FEW of the forum members have taken some of my advice on sealing the things to the corners and the advantages of them being sealed to a smooth-surfaced floor. It makes me feel that all the typing on this damned puter in attempts to answer questions is not a waste of my time. I notice quite often that some of the forum members with cast metal K-400 midrange horns just glop dynamat all over the entire outside of the horn lens. Now I will give some advice on this subject: Stages to damping the K-400 midrange horn lens: First, if you notice any ringing in your midrange horn lens, then check your upstream components for too much "presence". If that does not solve the problem, then just carefully tighten the screws that mount the horn lens to its motorboard (don't over-tighten them and strip out the wood of the motorboard there!), then add a rubber washer to the point where the supporting bracket attaches to the throat of the lens (between the lens and the bracket!), and ensure all of those screws are snuggged-up tightly. If that does NOT solve the problem (in most cases it SHOULD do so!), then remove the horn lens and remove its driver from the horn lens. Take the horn lens and hold it laying horizontally in your hand, like supporting a rifle when shooting it...and go outside and put your mouth/lips to the opening at the throat of the horn and talk loudly into the throat of the lens. If you hear any ringing in your voice, then reposition your supporting hand on the lens until the ringing stops. Wherever your supporting hand ends up on that lens when the ringing stops is where you need to damp it...JUST THERE!...no need for doing it anywhere else. See what I mean? Too much damping of the horn lens will deaden the presence of the music from that horn too much...just enough damping to stop the ringing is all that is required! One better alternative to rope caulk for damping is that liquid latex rubber stuff that folks use to dip tool handles in, so that they provide a better grip. Use something like acetone or rubbing alcohol to ensure the surface you will apply this to is clean, then: Just take an old paint brush, and paint that stuff on around the horn lens at the point where your hand ended up being in your test. Let it set up overnite and then give it another coat. Let that second coat set-up and Damping is finished! Reinstall the horn lens as I spoke of doing at the beginning of this paragraph and you are finished! NOT a major ordeal at all!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 HDBR, I can assure you that more than a FEW members react to your valuable comments. The problem is that you are speaking into the great abiss and don't hear many echos. For myself, I have increased my knowledge with every one of your posts over the last 2 years. Thanks. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 HDBRbuilder, thanks for all of the great advice. garyd9 great pictures! I think I will do the same as you with the mdf. I have one last question....On my tail board and I assume it is the same on all khorns, oh about 6"s from the bottom it narrows by a about an inch or two on each side. Are you guys sealing that to the wall as well? What I mean is if the tail board was the same width all the way down it would be easy to seal. Am I missing something here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Q-man...I agree with the thought that the ALK improves the bass. However, at the time that I installed the ALK I was impatient and changed from ss to tube pre-amp and amp all at the same time. I did the "semi-false" project after these major changes so I was confident about making statements that I did. Playntheblues...I was also faced with the problem that the tailboard is not straight at the bottom. I just made sure that the pipe insulation followed the cutout. I then smeared some water based paint on the mdf and positioned the K-horn. From the imprent on the paint, I am confortable that the insulation sealed to the mdf all the way to the bottom. It is my understanding that the cutout is to allow the K-horn to be place in corners where there wood molding is at the base. But the cutout was much to large for my molding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playntheblues Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 HI Gary, Great pictures. Would it be possible to get you to post a picture of the bottom half of the rear of your khorn? My tail board narrows at the bottom and I am trying to get an idea of how you guys deal with that. Thanks and all the best, Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Playntheblues....requested photo of the base of the tailboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyd9 Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Playntheblues...As I now look at photo #4, I see that the pipe insulation does not go all the way to the bottom of the tailboard. I will plug the hole with more insulation. Remember the finger in the dike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Gary, You can always cut a board the width and the height of your tail board and put a 45 degree back bevel on each side and screw it into your corner. When you do this you don't even need a tail board on the speaker, except the tail board helps stiffen up the speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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