Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 2, 2004 Share Posted March 2, 2004 I posted this in the HT forum with a smattering of response, maybe I'll do better here. Building a new house this year, half of the downstairs is open for wall placement and room size. The open half is appx 24x34. Is that big enough to build a wood shop, dedicated listening room, and still have some left over for storage? Or should I concentrate on making the listening room also the HT room? The other half is basically family/rec room, will have a tv, pool table, bar, etc., not sure if I want to try and make that the HT room or not. mOOn, if you should check this thread, how do you feel your 22x10 room works? Is it big enough? I don't want to end up with a wood shop that won't hold a 4x8 on a table saw, but the family room portion of the downstairs will not have corners that would support khorns, which are somewhere in my future. I expect to live in this house for a long time, so planning correctly now is of the essence. Any advice is very much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Champagne: I can't speak for m00n but he and I both have rooms of similar dimension. Mine is 10.5 x 19 and situated in a basement, so I have a concrete floor and a low 7' ceiling. m00n's has a much taller ceiling and it's above ground (I think). I am extremely pleased with how my room performs sonically and visually. The ONLY thing I would advise you of to be aware of (I think m00n might agree) is the width should be a little bit wider, say a minimum of 11.5 feet. This is because of the theater seating both he and I have used. m00n has genuine fold-down theater seats and I have the La-Z-boy Matinee Theater Loungers and with both of our rooms being only 10.5 feet wide, we are able to only seat three seats across comfortably. I would have prefered to have been able to seat 4 across instead, but a brick chiminey and some utilities decided that for me! Good luck and "Welcome to your nightmare!" Hey m00n! How 'bout adding yer two-cents, buddy! -Picky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy81 Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 My HT is 14' wide and I wish it was at least a few feet wider. My room is 14'x24'x8'. If you plan on using Heritage speakers, the width will play a major role in what speakers you can put in there. If you look at my HT, you can see that the Belles and center La Scala are about as close as you would want them. The other issues to consider are screen size and location for your gear. Good luck on your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picky Posted March 3, 2004 Share Posted March 3, 2004 Rudy81: I visited your site and you have an outstanding room (and equipment)! Nice job! -Picky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Thanks for the info, guys. Nightmare is, I believe, the correct term. So many options, so little money. Interestingly, I had checked both your sites previously looking at information, layout, etc, in fact, I had Pickys' bookmarked already, a lot of good stuff in there. The biggest concern I have at this point is trying to maximize the HT room, yet still keep the shop portion to a good working size, seems like something is going to have to give, especially since having some sort of storage area is a MUST according to the silly person I have chosen to spend my life with. If I could split the area into just HT and shop, I'd have a 24x14 HT and 24x20 shop, which would work just fine. Still doing research, wondering if the area above the garage will work for storage. Hmmmmmm...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 Hopefully this works, it did when I tested it. There is an unmarked outside door in the shop straight across from the one shown. To the bottom of the image is the family room/etc. I figure I can build 2-3 ft shelves the length of the long storage room, leave enough room to manuvure yet still have a ton of storage space. To the bottom of that is a door leading into the utility room, furnaces, water heater, well pump, etc. Ideas, suggestions, comments? Wondering about Khorns in the room, if they need to be on the long wall to breath right, or will they have enough room on the short wall? Again, a work in progress, measure twice, cut once, all that good stuff. *edit* In rereading my post once submitted, I realized how appropriate my sig is, especially in this instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 4, 2004 Author Share Posted March 4, 2004 As an aside, to any of you that have a wood shop, is 24x14 sufficient size? Right now, all I have to fill it is a hammer and a ba$tard file. Oh yeah, and a #2 Phillips screwdriver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill H. Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 ctbb, My only concern for your set up is making sure that your Wood Shop is completely sealed off from the HT/listening area! Dust,Dust, Dust!.............. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 OK, you asked me down here to offer an opinion, about combos vs. separates, and I'm offering it. The combo DVDR/VHS units are pieces of sh1t. The client I mentioned over in the 2 Channel Forum tried both the Go-Video and the Sansui units before he called me for honest advice (before this point, he had basically bought equipment and had me come out, hook it up, and show him how to use it) I used to sell the Polaroids at BB - they're no better. The upside of those combos is that they have copy-protection circuitry built in. If all you have is videos for your child to copy, then go for it. Fidelity isn't that big an issue when you're 4, 5, 6 years old. Don't expect them to outlast the cheapo VCR you just bought for your daughter to play the bloody tapes on, though. The reason the client I mentioned ended up coming to me for advice? Both these combos are a pain in the @$$ to use (hell, I could barely understand how to work the damned things, never mind teaching him to use them), and both produce poor-quality final products. That's what happens when you buy a combo that's cheaper than most standalone DVDR units (and, in fact, not much more expensive than a computer-based DVD-recorder.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 Hey Griff, thanks for the input. Actually, I'd asked you down here more for info on the design of an HT/Dedicated listening room, figured with all your experience you'd be in a good position to offer advice. I'm not even sure what all my questions are yet, just want to make sure I cover all my bases before it gets to be time to start putting up walls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 5, 2004 Share Posted March 5, 2004 ---------------- On 3/5/2004 12:36:08 PM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Hey Griff, thanks for the input. Actually, I'd asked you down here more for info on the design of an HT/Dedicated listening room, figured with all your experience you'd be in a good position to offer advice. I'm not even sure what all my questions are yet, just want to make sure I cover all my bases before it gets to be time to start putting up walls. ---------------- Understood. Can't spend any time on this now (about to head to a job) but I'll be back later tonight to explore with you a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 5, 2004 Author Share Posted March 5, 2004 I'll miss ya tonight, have a 8 place fully enclosed snowmobile trailer I'm taking home to use for moving "stuff" out of the house over the weekend, figure 6 weeks till it gets bulldozed, so trying to get a jump on moving the non-essentials into storage. Won't be back to a puter till Monday. Not used to towing anything this long, want to be home before it gets dark out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 ---------------- On 3/2/2004 7:58:22 PM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: I posted this in the HT forum with a smattering of response, maybe I'll do better here. Building a new house this year, half of the downstairs is open for wall placement and room size. The open half is appx 24x34. Is that big enough to build a wood shop, dedicated listening room, and still have some left over for storage? Or should I concentrate on making the listening room also the HT room? The other half is basically family/rec room, will have a tv, pool table, bar, etc., not sure if I want to try and make that the HT room or not. mOOn, if you should check this thread, how do you feel your 22x10 room works? Is it big enough? I don't want to end up with a wood shop that won't hold a 4x8 on a table saw, but the family room portion of the downstairs will not have corners that would support khorns, which are somewhere in my future. I expect to live in this house for a long time, so planning correctly now is of the essence. Any advice is very much appreciated. ---------------- Man, if you want KHorns, 23x34 would be a great size room to do a KHorn/LaScala HT system. You could bring that down to 23x20 and have a 10x13 storage area and a 14x13 wood shop. However, you'd have a hell of a lot of acoustic treatments to do if you squared the room off. Not that you wouldn't anyway, but you'll have to be more careful about placement of bass traps and panels. You neglected to mention - how tall will this be? Are we talking basement level here? Last thing you want to do is one of those "stucco"/sheetrock ceilings.According to what I've read, a drop-ceiling using 4" rigid fiberglass instead of those cheesy soft-panels, with a bare floor (wood if you like, but concrete is fine too) will give you a huge sound, without the flutter. Oh - the reason I'm slicing the foot off the dimensions? You'll want to use double-walls and a ton of fiberglass between them on the outside walls of the HT room. 12 inch (two 2x6's, with about 1.5 inches between) double-walls will do very nicely. Just don't sheetrock both sides of each wall - you'll ruin the effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 7, 2004 Share Posted March 7, 2004 ---------------- On 3/4/2004 7:29:51 PM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Hopefully this works, it did when I tested it. There is an unmarked outside door in the shop straight across from the one shown. To the bottom of the image is the family room/etc. I figure I can build 2-3 ft shelves the length of the long storage room, leave enough room to manuvure yet still have a ton of storage space. To the bottom of that is a door leading into the utility room, furnaces, water heater, well pump, etc. Ideas, suggestions, comments? Wondering about Khorns in the room, if they need to be on the long wall to breath right, or will they have enough room on the short wall? Again, a work in progress, measure twice, cut once, all that good stuff. *edit* In rereading my post once submitted, I realized how appropriate my sig is, especially in this instance. ---------------- Definitely am not a fan of this room design. 19x13 will choke you to death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 Bill H.: I am very aware of the dust issue, plan on having a dust collection system in the shop and also a externally vented fan to keep the room at a low pressure potential to the rest of the house, hopefully whenever a door or window is opened air will be travelling into the shop, preventing dust from getting out too much. Also using in-floor heat in the downstairs which will eliminate dust circulation through the fored air ducting system in the upstairs. Griff: In an ideal world, I'd use that whole side of the bastment for just the HT room. However... the WAF would be off the scale. She isn't all that enthused about the whole listening room/HT to begin with, so some compromises must be made. Yes, it's a downstairs, with 8 foot ceilings. The outside walls are ICF poured concrete, shouldn't be any vibration problems there. I realize this won't be an optimally sized room, but I have only so much room to work with. It seems others here have managed to creat an acceptable sized room with less space than I have to work with, so can only forge ahead and hope for the best. Keep in mind, this is not a no holds barred, money no object project. I am not too concerned with sound infiltration to the shop or storage areas, but do need to limit it as much as possible from transfering through the ceiling, as it will be below my daughters bedroom and somewhat under the master bedroom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 ---------------- On 3/8/2004 11:14:15 AM Champagne taste beer budget wrote: Griff: In an ideal world, I'd use that whole side of the bastment for just the HT room. However... the WAF would be off the scale. She isn't all that enthused about the whole listening room/HT to begin with, so some compromises must be made. Yes, it's a downstairs, with 8 foot ceilings. The outside walls are ICF poured concrete, shouldn't be any vibration problems there. I realize this won't be an optimally sized room, but I have only so much room to work with. It seems others here have managed to creat an acceptable sized room with less space than I have to work with, so can only forge ahead and hope for the best. Keep in mind, this is not a no holds barred, money no object project. I am not too concerned with sound infiltration to the shop or storage areas, but do need to limit it as much as possible from transfering through the ceiling, as it will be below my daughters bedroom and somewhat under the master bedroom. ---------------- No problem. What I'd suggest as an alteration to your floor plan: Cut back about 6" from the exterior wall on the one side, and build your HT room walls to about 8" from the ceiling. That way this becomes an almost totally freestanding room. Use drop ceiling throughout the storage and HT room area. Use Owens Corning 703 panels in the drop ceiling framework, with 6" of plain fiberglass between it and the hard ceiling. Install homemade bass traps in the corners, and checkerboard that 703 on the walls. That will kill your noise bleed to the upstairs, and still give you the great room sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhawk92 Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Griff- Tell me more about the OC 703 panels. I'll most likely be doing the drop ceiling thing myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 Sorry - OC = Owens Corning. 703 - the model number of the panels. They're sold as 2'x4' slabs, in varying thicknesses, ranging from 1/2" to 2". It's compressed fiberglass - much more effective at absorbing low frequencies (particularly when mounted on a frame and hung, rather than strapped to a wall) than any "acoustic foam" material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted March 8, 2004 Author Share Posted March 8, 2004 I've been checking through the OC site, lots of info on sound deadening/absortive material, but they don't use the actual product code numbers. Do you know the trade name for the 703 panels? QuietSound, SelectSound, SoundSoak, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted March 8, 2004 Share Posted March 8, 2004 First things first. In a simple room (ie: parallel walls, perpendicular floor/ceiling) if any of the room dimensions are shorter than the wavelengths of the frequencies that are to be reproduced you are going to encounter nodes or standing waves which are basically areas of pressure build-up which results in an increase in amplitude at that frequency, in that location (usually near room boundaries & corners). And often the result in areas of the room where we listen is the opposite, a 'null' or cancellation of that same frequency. The only way to MINIMIZE (not eliminate) this is to 1. make the room surfaces non-parallel 2. make the rooms proportions dimensioned in a 1:1.26:1.59 ratio Moons room is much too narrow. And its much too narrow in relationship to its length which results in a very lumpy low end response with excessive bass at certain frequencies. We can debate the merits of acoustic foam verses fiberglass all day long. The fact of the matter is there is no one standard for measuring the absorption coefficients. Very different results may be obtained on the same materials at different testing facilities & methods. I use both and I use them very differently. That being said, it is far more important how you use these materials than which kind or how much of either you use. There really arent any limitations on room size or proportions per se. Its just that as the room gets smaller, & the proportions get exaggerated, certain things become increasingly difficult to deal with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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